Gov. Perry is now proposing to have this type of law passed in Texas. He wants to place it on the "expedited legislation list" to have it passed ASAP. What I found ironic is the next news story talked about all of the budget cuts we will be experiencing and how several elementary schools will be closing with 300 teachers being laid off. We can't even educate the children we have, the ones that are wanted. With the economy and all of the budget cuts in childrens education/programs/hospitals etc.. how do you (specifically those against abortion) propose to pay for the unwanted pregnancies/babies?

On a side note I recommend having a medical advocate if possible to help make decisions for those that do not have any medical knowledge. I actually have a clause in my will that if I am incapcitated, my 2 friends who are also veterinarians will help my mom make medical decisions. I frequently go to Drs appointments with my mother as she has no idea what to ask.

That guy's argument is "Pro-choicers are factually correct but they're ignoring that it is murder." And as pro-choicers are not ignoring anything, but do not consider a fetus to be human life, I'm underwhelmed by his "argument"

Just for the record -- MC, DF, and agzg will be getting their Black Folks Welcome Packets within 5 business days. First year's dues are waived.

Whoops -- you're right. But with less money spent on dues, I can convince the group members to take care of their illegitimate children.

Win-win, eh?

I don't need to - I aborted all my illegitimate kids.

Thanks - does it come with a credit-card sized membership badge? On one side I want one but I don't want someone to come and revoke my Black Card, either.

The Black Card trumps the card in the welcome packet. You only receive the BC after years of dedicated service.

It puts you first in line to see your auntie and uncle in Bel Air, or to move on up to the East Side. I'd hold on to that one.

I will work.

I mean, I will work it while I wear fabulous hats (I just saw a catalog full of hats and I'm really really really really really struggling not to pay $200 for a brand new gorgeous hat).

@ DS1 - That is surely everywhere I want to be.

Everyone knows the relevant Black Card is from Amex. Just ask Pusha T. I'm sure he could resize his jpeg so as not to break the frame, too - NICE NERD THREAD DS, JESUS.

It's sad to see yet another abortion thread devolve into a racist mess. Why can't we just talk about killing babies like rational, level-headed people?

Just another thing I can't understand, like the fact that Michael Vick isn't allowed a dog, but Ben Roethlisberger is allowed a fiance.

This whole post=
http://instntrply.com/wp-content/upl...01/RexToss.gif

Right, like you ever pay dues. Madmax has taught me that.

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7...ous3786363.jpg

If you had the Black Amex card, you wouldn't have to worry about exceeding your bandwith, Drole.

Fuck, that's what I get for stealing the pic in the first place. I NEVER hotlink.

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic...lol I'm having some trouble understanding how the use of scissors is worse than any other method of abortion that occurs after the nerves have hooked themselves up.

An anesthetic could be used IV like propofol followed by beuthanasia. This would be more humane.

The scissors were used, at least in some cases, post-birth, not as an abortive procedure. Also scissors feel more visceral because everyone has held a pair of scissors so the whole thing is more real and thus more gruesome.

Are you also in favor of beheading instead of lethal injection in death penalty cases?

It seems clear that one is an accepted, tested and legitimate medical procedure, and the other is CUTTING A NECK WITH SCISSORS.

lol

Newest logical fallacy - begging the question.

"Not considering a fetus to be human life" does indeed mean abortion wouldn't be murder. But the question of whether or not it is a human life is in no way decided - that is in fact the point on which the two sides disagree. If it isn't a human life, which is apparently your argument,what is it? A non-human life? - Especially once he/she can exist outside of the mother's womb - at that point the parasitic argument is rendered moot.

If abortion is indeed a right, is it an unlimited one? Most rights can be exercised on a sliding scale of sorts - your right to exercise it is limited by its intrusion on others' rights. As even Roe v. Wade made clear - a fetus has more of a right to have his/her right to life considered the further along in development it is. Thus the differences spelled out in the limits of a woman's right to an abortion according to the trimester of development - which to return to my earlier point about ultrasounds would be much easier to deduce with an ultrasound than in trying to figure out when the baby was conceived, especially in an unplanned preganancy. Also, if we start framing the discussion in terms of competing rights, a strong argument can be made that if a woman is indeed in the tiny minority of women whose lives are threatened by a pregnancy her right to live supercedes that of the unborn baby.

I wish the debate weren't being lead by either side's more extreme members. I also think that ultimately the war will be won non-legislatively. But that's another thread.

Right. A doctor can look at an ultrasound and make a judgment as to how many weeks the fetus is. What is the reasoning behind FORCING a woman to view an ultrasound before an abortion?

I completely agree.

Right, but what's a few centimeters really? I don't see any difference between what the doctor did and partial-birth abortion, which wasn't even made criminal until 2003.

Actually, a better analogy is being beheaded (scissors) versus being drawn and quartered (current procedure). Both are gruesome. Are you unfamiliar with how abortions are accomplished?

I'm with aggieAXO. Woman and fetus should be anesthetized as standard procedure before any abortive procedure.

You are assuming a lot of facts by stating that the "nerves have hooked themselves up." People like to believe what they like to believe, but the nervous sytem in a fetus is very, very rudimentary. Even in a newborn, the myelination of the nerves and brain are so incomplete that they rely on us for everything. Why do you think they learn as they age? Because their brain develops the myelin and is able to function and send signals from one cell to the other more efficiently. Just because a nerve is present in a fetus does NOT mean that a 3 month fetus "feels pain" like you or I do. Even if the fetus appears to "recoil from painful stimuli," those can be easily explained by basic reflexes. It's the same as saying that because the nerves are there, a baby should be able to think the same as you or I, be immediately potty trained, go straight to school, etc. It doesn't happen because of the limitations of the nervous system as it matures.

What did I say to make you think I assumed that fetuses feel pain the same way fully developed bodies do? I'm not concerned about the degree of pain. I'd prefer there to be NO pain. If nerves are basically formed by the 12th week, regardless of how rudimentary, there is sensation.

Can you guarantee to me that there is no pain? If not, I vote to anesthetize.

In fact, here, the writer was begging the question just as much as the pro-choice writers he referenced.

"In the same breath you're arguing that people disagree on the premise and then trying to turn and state that one perception of the premise is right. Pro-choice individuals probably have a variety of perspectives on what precisely a human fetus is, whether it is life or not, yet still believe that a woman has the right to choose whether her body will support that fetus. Even at a vague level of viability - something that isn't a clear cut time frame - that fetus is still using her body to live.

Indeed these are all points of debate. Although I argue that because there is no clear line that one can draw whether by time, health, or others standards that would protect a woman's mental and physical health as well as her right to her own body, that the optimum solution is minimal restrictions along with education for kids and teens, access to general healthcare for all women, and high levels of support for pregnant women who WANT to have children (also no longer accepting slut-shaming in schools, work, or you know, life.) No one's like "YAY MORE ABORTIONS" except for a few hipsters who like to let people know how edgy they are.


Non-legislative would be my ideal as well. Also non-public referendum. But I'm a dreamer.
Considering "partial-birth abortion" isn't an actual procedure, which was the major complaint about the bill banning it, and every court in the US would consider THIS murder, I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse to try and make a point. It doesn't suit you.


Analogy fail. Contrasting the accepted procedure to one considered inappropriate and gruesome was the point he was making. Accepted procedure isn't inherently good, but you have to actually break it down on medical grounds not because it sounds icky. Snipping the spine of a newborn is murder, plain and simple.

Do you think there may be a reason why this isn't done? Medical reason that is.

Can you guarantee the safety of a mother whose fetus is anesthetized? You realize they share a circulatory system through the placenta, right? You're arguing with a medical professional about an ideal but not grounding it in facts.

Not at all. I have a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around the concepts that we're dealing with. For instance, on one hand, murdering a pregnant woman can trigger two counts of murder. On the other hand, abortion is legal. I have the same issue with "fetus in = abortion" while "fetus out = murder."

Now, it is. My point continues to be that the reaction from the onlookers is curious.

Absolutely.

Riiiight...and mothers in higher end facilities have been known to be anesthetized. We just haven't decided to make that the norm. It's not all that far-fetched of an ideal.

Only some jurisdictions trigger multiple murder counts if a woman is pregnant. Fetus becomes infant at birth. One often uses drawing a breath as the 'standard' but I don't believe that it's legal.


Only if they don't make the distinction themselves. Additionally it is curious you ignored the other aspect, the part where we've all held scissors so we can imagine it happening where most of us have not held other medical equipment on a regular basis.


If so, then why insist on it.

The mother is anesthetized, you were talking about the fetus.

Maybe I have an active imagination, because both ripping the fetus apart and stabbing/cutting it with scissors give me shivers.

I mean general anethesia, which takes us back to the line we're drawing. If there's a chance the fetus feels pain (and there is), I can't stomach the idea of hurting it. That's the second of two reasons I haven't ever been able to bring myself to do it.

I guess. Generally I don't imagine myself doing things I hear about in the news unless they're things that I would like to do. And I have a morbid sense of amusement, so I really can't relate.


Well, generally you don't anesthetize people unless they need it due to the risks involved. That can include mental health reasons, that's why sedation dentists on the radio here are doing such good business. But though no one actually enjoys the idea of causing any living thing harm, humans do so all the time. If anesthetizing the mother completely increases the risks to her, then the risk/benefit may not be wise unless the woman cannot be calm enough during the procedure without it.

Do you eat meat? While we can never be 100% certain, science tells us that the fetus wouldn't be able to feel pain in any way similar to that of a fully formed human. The reason I bring other animals into the discussion at all is because a fetus' nervous system is THAT underdeveloped.

Animals feel pain too, but I don't place any animal's life above that of a human/fetus, so the connection isn't as relevant to me.

I've had the opportunity to kill animals with my own hands for meat, so I'm not entirely distanced from what it means to take life. It's important to me that death (animal or fetus) is as quick and painless as possible.

Here's how I see it.

All pregnancies should be between 2 consenting, non-related fully educated adults who are in a committed and stable relationship. Neither adult would be a drug, tobacco or alcohol user and the mother would know upon first day of first missed period that she is pregnant and would seek medical attention immediately. After 9 months she would go to the hospital and give birth to a perfectly healthy and happy baby and due to her insurance there would be no bill upon departure.

Great. So how many errors come into play there? Yes, I would prefer no late term abortions happen, and yes, it seems retarded that a woman would wait this long to do something so traumatizing to mother, child and society. Yes, I would prefer that at this late stage she would give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption (if it's viable, SOMEBODY will want it, even if it's a preemy). But there are sooooo many scenarios where you can justify this horrific process (late term abortion, not what this freak doctor did) that it should not be illegal. However, good counseling should coincide.

Let's face it, this is not happening to the 17 year old prom queen who's afraid to tell for fear of getting kicked off the cheer leading squad. These women are in utterly desperate situations and they need support and guidance, not crucifixion.

This doctor, however? Put him in prison and let the rest of the population know what he did. The death penalty is too good for this guy.

Why? Many posters don't believe he did anything wrong. Accordingly, it is a fetus until it exits the birth canal so it does not have the right to life. It is not protected in it's personage. Oh yeah, I forgot, the adult died. He might be a hero if that had not happened. :confused:

I haven't seen one person post that they don't think he did anything wrong.

WTF are you talking about? You're trolling pretty hard here, Glenn.

I am not Glenn and I have been on this board for quite a while. I don't expect you to have to agree with me but I say what I say and mean what I say. I am pro life because the baby is always the innocent one and not necessarily the adult.

My point is that many on this board do not find late term abortion or abortion as a whole a problem. The problem is that the Dr. was performing "illegal" abortions instead of "legal" ones. So yes by inference the condemnation is that he wasn't doing anything wrong in the abortions only that they were "illegal".

Here is a previous quote:

"Most late-term abortions are due to issues like Down's Syndrome or genetic problems that would result in the infant's death shortly after birth. They are not because suzy couldn't "choose" not to have sex. But even if they are, I'd rather women have access to the care than do this, because this is the result when abortion is illegal or when access is restricted."

So one supports the right of a woman to have a late term abortion but not by this man. The concern was obviously not for the children but rather the adult.

One does not need to be new to be a troll. You are TROLLING. You're trying to get a rise out of people. Since it's quiet at work though, I'll be happy to point out what a blathering idiot you are if you think anyone in this thread is either actively or passively condoning cutting the spinal cord of an infant with scissors.

You mean these posts? These posts that say that what the doctor did was disgusting and he was wrong to do it?

Oh yes, these posts are all about how great it is to kill babies. In fact, you know what? I bet these posters actually advocate for killing babies up to their first birthday. After all, isn't that juuuuuuust like having an abortion?

Oh, it's not? Great. Glad to have that cleared up.

How about you call Drole out specifically instead of being passive aggressive?

Here, I pulled the quote for you. Don't say I never gave you anything.

I support the rights of women to seek reproductive healthcare, and I support the rights of those women and their doctors to make LEGAL decisions about their healthcare behind closed doors. The contents of a woman's uterus are none of your business. Unless you'd like me to inform you each time I have my period and how heavy my flow is? I'd be happy to do that.

Furthermore, if you don't have any concern for actual adults in addition to having concern for the health and welfare of children, I'd say that's pretty fucked up.

I will call you out or anyone else if I so chose. If you put your own "reproductive" rights over that of the child then shame on you. Killing children in the name of "reproductive" rights is messed up. You do not see it as a child and I do. The adult is not the innocent one here. I disagree with you and your ilk so live with it. You will not convince me you are right and you will not keep me from posting what I believe.

Bottom line you believe it is acceptable to kill the unborn as long as it is done by in a "legal" manor. I do not unless the life of the mother is at stake. She then has the right to chose as it is a life vs. a life. I wish for us to err on the side of the innocent child more than the adult.

That's not logical at all. This man did not just perform abortions but murdered babies that had been born and alive for several minutes on their own. He also, for instance, kept body parts in jars.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but you are making leaps that are fragile at best. No one here has supported what this man did. Believing women have a right to abortion does not mean supporting this "doctor's" actions.
This isn't about convincing people to change their views. Abortion is a controversial topic and I think it's obvious no one expects to change another person's mind on a message board. However, if you wish others to respect your right to an opinion, have the decency to respect their right. You aren't going to change anyone's mind, either, and certainly not by referring to anyone who supports a woman's right to choose as "ilk".

Have fun.

By the way, I had my period two weeks ago, so I'll have one again in a couple of weeks. My flow was pretty light this time, which is odd because it's usually moderate. As a result, it lasted two full days longer than normal.

Unfortunately, the egg died as a result of my period. Funeral arrangements will be made. By the way, since you're so interested in telling a person what she should do in regards to her uterus, I'm running low on tampons. What brand would you suggest? I'd really hate to commit a moral error by buying the wrong brand.