Wow. Where does one begin?

Condescending. Unfamiliar. Those are a couple of the adjectives that come to mind when reading this post.

You obviously haven't been a member of GC. The majority of us are alumns of our respective fraternities and sororities. Many of us are/have been chapter advisors to both established chapters and colonies. Many of us have either volunteered for our inter/national groups or have worked for our groups.

We understand the issues going on at FGCU. Really, we do. What it boils down to is this: Some guys didn't like the current fraternities. Did they go as a group to the Greek Life Office and say this, explaining their issues and their request to look for a new fraternity? Or, did they form a new group on their own, look around for a fraternity, liked Kappa Sigma, and contacted them? (From some earlier posts, that's the way it sounds.) Kappa Sigma talked to them, liked what they saw, and said "We'd love to have you guys as a group."

Did Kappa Sigma or the young men starting the group ever look/ask about FGCU's expansion policies before this all started? If not, that was poor planning and you got blindsided by a rule that you should have checked into.
If yes, then you saw the rule that says that unrecognized colonies/expansions could not be recognized for 5 years and decided, "To hell with it. We'll do it anyway." Either way, there is an established rule that is non-discriminatory because it does apply to any Greek organization. If they were applying it to you, and then (for example) Phi Lambda Chi is acccepted even though they had a non-recognized expansion, I can guarrantee you that you would have my full support.

I keep hearing that you have all the NIC Inter/National Offices supporting you. Well, then, they need to check the Expansion Resolution from the NIC. Especially the last section:

"To provide students with context for the benefits and lessons of expansion, the members of the Conference agree to:

*Educate their undergraduate chapters, the Interfraternity Council leaders and interested alumni about the overall benefits and responsibilities of expansion and to foster ongoing support for the growth of the fraternity movement;
*Offer only those statements and promises in expansion discussions which accurately reflect capabilities;
*Encourage the highest academic, social, and moral standards among all interested students in all expansion endeavors;
*Make every reasonable attempt to coordinate expansion efforts with the administration and with the Interfraternity Council of colleges and universities at which they are pursuing expansion opportunities;
*Recognize that the size of a member fraternity is not indicative of that member fraternity's ability to administer an expansion project at an institution;
*Respect the right of any organized collegiate group to seek a member fraternity of its choice in an effort to affiliate with that general fraternity; and
*Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

^^ See that one: "Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status." Before, not during, not after. Before.
Plain and simple.

No one here is against expansion or for discrimination. We are for properly done expansions and following rules.

And, let me say again, I really don't understand why you want support from Inter/National Offices of an Organization that you choose not to be a member.

Now, you know what happens when you assume.

Healy v James?

And can you provide a cite for any case holding that public colleges and universities must recognize Greek life, because I know of no such cases. Public institutions cannot prohibit membership in Greek organizations, and if Greek life is recognized, then the same rules must apply to all GLOs, but I know of no case saying that Greek life must be recognized. (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since FGCU does recognize Greek life.)

Are you suggesting that when First Amendment rights are at issue, various jurisdictions can apply strict scrutiny standards other than the standards adopted by the Supreme Court of the United States? Or are you just noting that states may have greater protections than those afforded by the First Amendment?

From what I can see, you are grossly overstating an equal protection analysis. If you've read the cases, you know that the expressive association of which you speak is the right to associate for the purposes protected by the First Amendment: speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion.

FGCU clearly does not appear to dicriminate against Greek-letter organizations on these grounds -- the existence of fraternities and sororities at the school puts that argument to rest. Nor is Kappa Sigma being "discriminated" against because of any activity protected by the First Amendment. It's not a matter, say, of Kappa Sigma requiring a belief in God, while the school says that recognized organizations cannot exclude students on the basis of religion. Nope, from what I've seen, the Kappa Sigma colony is not being recognized because it failed/refused to follow the procedures that apply to all fraternities for colonization and recogniztion.

FGCU did provide the Kappa Sigma colony with the same liberties it provided other fraternities -- or at least it provided it with the opportunity for those liberties. If the colony is being deprived of those liberties, it appears to be due to the colony's own choices, not discrimination by FGCU. Doesn't sound like a promising equal protection or First Amendment case to me.

Yep. I was indeed there once. But these days I'm a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar with 20+ years of practice in constitutional law under my belt. How about you?

I went back to your 1st post and realized that I somehow skipped the part where you told me to be educated and not opinionated. Again, let me point out the last part of NIC's Expansion Resolution: *Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

I suggest that before you tell someone else to "try to be educated", you educate yourself on the policies of an organization whose members you are trying to convince to support you.

Lol I love how the rules only apply to them when it is convenient. They left NIC, because they didn't agree with it's rules and policies. Now they are trying to use same rules and policies to their advantage.

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

MC, 33girl, and LaneSig FTMFW

Seriously? You are now comparing an unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony to the struggle of African Americans and women to get their civil rights. Wow. Just, wow.

I can assure you that Sigma Chi does not just "roll over and go home" when we face a problem.

What we do is make sure we know the atmosphere of the campus. We make sure that we have the full cooperation of the administration before anything happens. We make sure that all the "t"s are crossed and the "i"s dotted. That way, there is no problem.

You requested to come on and colonize in 2008? Is this Kappa Sigma the organization or the group that became Kappa Sigma?

2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules.

Which is it?

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

I must say that I am glad you are having a slow day. This thread has been fun to lurk in- although I'll take the "you're just young" part as a complement.

Because it just had to be said again.

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

^^^ You really are an idiot. <---directed at KSigAdvisor

If you really feel your rights have been violated, take it up with the courts. I'm sure MC will represent you, once his mind is up and running again :rolleyes:

BTW -- if you're an undergrad, how are you an advisor?

So you must be really pissed at yourself
You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.
Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.
You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

:) :) :) You have NO idea how much I needed that today. Missing the Sigma Chi boys badly...

And to segue, I have to say that everything LaneSig says is true. Sigma Chi is attempting to return to my campus and they are doing an AMAZING amount of homework as far as making sure the campus is ready for it, enlisting alumni, telling alumni in no uncertain terms what they're signing on for, getting their name out to the campus Greek community etc etc.

BTW, KSig"Advisor" (because I hope to hell you really are not this chapter's advisor), I haven't had a boy call me a stupid drunk so much in a long time. It's kind of giving me a lady boner.

:eek::D

i<3youguyz.

FTW

This is wicked true about the limited resources. However, SG doens't recognize the groups at FGCU, OSI does. Just an FYI :)

I'm confused. If you're an advisor- which I'm not doubting that you are- how can you not know how the Greek expansion process works?

I can show up at TCU and recruit all kinds of young ladies to join the new "chapter" of Alpha Phi. We can have "recruitment," and events, and mixers, and initiations, and everything.

...and if we're not recognized as a chapter by the Panhellenic council, OR the university, we won't be recognized by our Executive Office, either.

If this chapter of Kappa Sigma isn't officially recognized at FGCU, can it be officially recognized by your HQ?

Thank you and corrected. The way my school did it, so I ASSumed.

You are doing the absolute most, and sounding more and more like an idiot in the process.

A lot of us do support open expansion. We're called the member fraternities of NIC.

And also -- why the hell would my organization (or any other GLO) need Kappa Sigma's blessing in order to expand? Really? What could KS do?

any sorority member is going to be impressed by you? Why can't we understand your argument? Are our little feminine brains too small to handle logic and legalese? Really? Here's an eye-opener for you - we can understand a valid argument! Some of us actually get college educations, and work in academic and professional fields! I teach logic to college students, and we discuss all sorts of things which are outside my/our personal experience.
NPC does an admirable job of handling expansion - it works for us. We like the system - it's not a case of whether or not we could operate without it - it's a case of not feeling the need to fix what isn't broken. Fraternities have a much higher rate of chapters closing and/or not even making it past the colony stage than sororities as a result of their more open-expansion policies.It's a price fraternities seem willing to pay - but that doesn't mean our system is "unnecessary".

Honest to goodness, for the sake of the undoubtedly good guys who are in the colony, please stop being argumentative and combative - you are not helping the cause. If you can't present your argument without being insulting maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

eta - IBTL

Dude, just call up Julian Bond, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and they will be so on the side of their poor oppressed brothers. (Everyone stop a minute and think about normally cool and composed JB saying "WHAT is this honky talking about??")

I'm so glad you are the representation of the fraternity that wants to come on my campus. This defiantly makes me want to support you. Please, come and help us poor small brained sorority women at this campus. I don't know how any of us have been functioning for the past seven years without you.

So your undergrads are sheep?

And I think that only NIC members should be able to use NIC policies.

Paste by SWTexBelle:

"Honest to goodness, for the sake of the undoubtedly good guys who are in the colony, please stop being argumentative and combative - you are not helping the cause. If you can't present your argument without being insulting maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard. "

subsequently posted by KSigAdvisor:
"'Calm down... if your small brain will allow.... "I'm just sayin....'"

KSigAdvisor:

I'm a Kappa Sig,and I'm with SWTexBelle all the way. I've read your posts on this thread and for the most part they are embarrassing to the Fraternity and the FGSU colony. If you are the colony's advisor, and your attitude and comments on this thread are reflective of those of the colony members, or, worse yet, are indicative of the attitudinal influence you are having on the colony members as their 'advisor', it is small wonder that the colony is facing so much opposition on campus, and I have no doubt that it will take years for the Rho-Zeta Chapter, as it will soon be, to gain formal recognition. Comments like "if your small brain will allow" to a sorority member, whether stated in earnest or in jest, certainly will not win the colony/chapter any perhaps much-needed and certainly what would be much-appreciated sorority support.

Having said that, I think a couple of other posters on this thread miss one of your points. Kappa Sigma ALWAYS supports open expansion opportunity by fraternities and/or sororities at colleges and universities. Kappa Sigma is not suggesting that other GLOs necessarily need that support or are dependent on it; but other fraternities and sororities have the reassurance that Kappa Sigma (and some other like-minded fraternities) will always provide it.

I believe that Kappa Sigma, and any other fraternity and sorority, should have the right to establish an operative presence ... an interest group, then a colony, and then a chapter, if the group succeeds ... if it wants to do so, at FGCU and at any other public college or university, and that as long as it adheres to that school's polices regarding conduct, pledging, academic standards, and so on, it should be accorded formal/official recognition. I do not believe that any fraternity or sorority should be subject to being told by such a school if and when it can come on campus. Private colleges and universities are, of course, a different matter. However, once a fraternity does establish a presence at a public college or university, it should do everything it can to attract/inculcate/develop support and build a positive reputation on campus. I have been unable to determine from the posts on this thread whether the Kappa Sig colony at FGSU has done that, or whether they have given the school's administration and the other GLOs on campus the proverbial finger and essentially alienated most, if not, all of those whose support it should be seeking. Certainly comments like KSigAdvisor's telling someone, even if it is a poster on this thread who is not actually a FGSU student, to "'Calm down... if [her] small brain will allow..." does not make me feel too optimistic in that regard. I hope that the actual colony members show more respect for others.

Well, yes., you got me on that. It was a Friday afternoon after all, the pollen was heavy and Duke won the NCAA men's finals this week. Who wouldn't be in a downward spiral cognitively?

Again you assume. My fraternity (non-NIC) doesn't have a chapter at FGCU, IFC or otherwise. And don't try to tell me you're helping us out, because my fraternity will not colonize without approval from the school.

I don't know why I bother, but I'll just say that I have seen judges on quite a few occasions basically say "don't waste my time telling me the rule that keeps you out is unconstitutional when you might have been able to comply with the rule to begin with but didn't even try."

You know, I really don't know what's more remarkable: That you're spending this much energy arguing with strangers on the internet or that you think insults, condescension and prickishness are effective means of persuasion.

It all evens out then. I'm embarrassed by the example you set for your fraternity brothers.

I rest my case.

It's SWTXBelle - not southern. There is a Southern Belle here, but it is not me.

You stated "Lastly, before I forget, I don't expect any of the sorority members on here to really understand this argument." It was that which I was commenting on in terms of sorority members and their brain size - and while you may try to interpret that as NOT saying we have small brains (lack of intelligence) , the fact is, you then went and said the very thing you said you had not said, undoubtly for comic effect, but I submit you failed. The fact that so many others have interpreted it the same way indicates that.

As to "no one said you had to fix something that you don't think is broken" - you wrote "Your views are skewed by the fact that you have voluntarily created an unnecessary organization that you named Panhellenic, which you give the authority to provide strict oversight of your groups. Believe it or not, you could actually operate without it." Your representation of the NPC as "unnecessary" and your "Believe it or not, you could actually operate without it" indicated that you hold our 100+ year old organization in contempt, and think that it is indeed "broken" and we should operate without it.

AND as for referencing a post which I took down, please note that when I perceived I was being unnecessarily insulting (although funny), I took it down. You should try it.

QFP

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...rain_wreck.jpg

So what is the sororities' take on all this, near as you can tell?

that there are rules and procedures that apply to everyone/every organization, and those rules and procedures should be followed , that KSigAdvisor has not furthered his cause nor his case and that he has been extremely insulting and derogatory to many gc members and has been especially insensitive toward women.

Are any of the NPC chapters doing anything with Kappa Sigma?

I think that's another one of the colony's complaints - that the sororities are being instructed not to have mixers, etc with them. (Jennyj correct me if I got this wrong) But you, I, and the whole free world know that if these guys were awesome enough, if a new fraternity was needed enough, and if the sororities dug them enough, there would be plenty of non-official "socializing" at parties and such.

I know that back when I was advising we could have no "official" social events with non-recognized groups.

No

that is exactly right-too many potential risk management issues doing things with a non-recognized group.

[QUOTE=KSigAdvisor;1915575

My comment to Belle was in response to her original comment where she took a shot at me. She removed the post, however, so now I look like a jerk. She finished by saying "I'm just sayin" so I was mimicking her post. It was completely in jest, lighten up.

Kappa Sigs do not disrespect women, whatsoever, and that kind of behavior is not tolerated. If a girl wants to jump in and call me a fucking idiot, I shouldn't react. Also, Belle took my comments and ran with them. I never said anything negative towards women.
And is response to your comment, Belle, that "we're not awesome" enough, thanks for that. (Where are you at attacking her Stu?) So, Belle, don't assume anything. Our guys are top notch, despite the year and a half peer bashing they've received from the other groups.
.[/QUOTE]

I explained point by point using your exact words why I interpreted your postings as I did. GCers can decide for themselves if I am off-base. Several women have informed you that they do in fact believe you have made negative comments about women. You may not have intended to - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - but the fact is that is how they read. You may either become defensive, or might I suggest you go clean up your posts so they focus on your arguments for Kappa Sigma at FGCU?

I have not called you any names, nor have I used any language which a lady would not use. If you look like a jerk, it is entirely of your own doing.

I made one cheap shot, realized it was exactly that, and took it down. It was up for a matter of minutes.

I never posted anything that stated you were not "awesome enough". I went so far as to ask you in consideration for the "undoubtly good guys" in your colony to stop the insulting and demeaning language. I would appreciate it if you would not misrepresent my postings, although in all fairness I should say that anyone can read the thread and draw their own conclusions.

COMPLETELY UNSOLICITED ADVICE - Don't make this about you - make your argument for Kappa Sigma colonizing without university approval in the best logical, rational way you can. Having done so, let those who disagree do the same without getting caught up in any personal animosity. Don't post anything which you wouldn't willingly submit to your HQ. In that way you can best advance your cause, represent your fraternity, and contribue to the community at Greek Chat.