I wouldn't say stronger, but actually, my chapter has several vets (which is a really high number given that our campus is tiny and has very few vets, and Greek life is rather unpopular), and every one of them says that our organization is the only place they have felt similar bonds to those created in the military.

And no, we don't haze AT ALL. So there goes that theory.

Going back to this comment...

You say most pledges thanked you. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 90% of them thought that what you did meant something, and they really appreciated it. That sounds like a good number. But let's not forget that 40% of the pledge class dropped, and clearly didn't appreciate it. Let's pretend you have a pledge class of 10 to start. 4 of them leave. Of the 6 left, 1 of them hated it and didn't enjoy being yelled at, but made it through the process anyway. That leaves 5 members of the class that actually found a meaning in it. Half. That's a pretty low number if you ask me. And not worth it.

Hazing really took off after WWI when the GI's came back from overseas and attended colleges. They wanted to take what they learned in boot camp and apply it to their brotherhoods. Most Fraternities were founded earlier than this timeframe and hazing was not a part of their founding.

I was hazed a long time ago and it did nothing for me. It kind of makes for interesting conversation amongst alums but it did not make me a stronger brother. It always seemed that the ones who hazed the worse were the slackers and did nothing constructive for the chapter. As a pledge trainer I concentrated on building a cohesive pledge class and having them work closely with each other and interact with the brotherhood. Learn the history, learn the lore, learn about the brothers, be true to your family, God, brotherhood and country. You don't have to do push ups or sit ups to accomplish this.

As an alum, as you say you are, you may subject yourself to being kicked permanently out of many Fraternities for any such activities. Ask yourself if it is worth it.

Dude, fraternities are not trained to go out to wars. It's two totally different concept. A fraternity is supposed to supplement a gentleman's educational experience.

[quote=Ghostwriter;1791453]As a pledge trainer I concentrated on building a cohesive pledge class and having them work closely with each other and interact with the brotherhood. Learn the history, learn the lore, learn about the brothers, be true to your family, God, brotherhood and country. You don't have to do push ups or sit ups to accomplish this.


actually, it can build a cohesiveness within a pledge class. when you experience something that's actually difficult (not just memorizing old lore) with another person and have the opportunity to bond with them, motivate them, and rely on them you build a much stronger bond than someone who just does some fundraising or studies with you. It is a rite of passage knowing that every member of the organization has experienced what you are experiencing. You don't have to be worked to death, beaten, or forced to drink to have this type of experience either. I'm proud of what i went through to earn my letters, and it was evident that every other member was also. the best times i've ever had as a brother were out at the house with just other brothers hanging out but the bond that made that interaction possible was forged during the pledge period. Nobody forced me to do anything, i was free to walk whenever i wanted to. i have absolutely no problem with those who wish not to haze whatsoever, but i hope that the program at my chapter never changes.

^^^ Your chapter is not listed on your national website. If hazing created worthwhile brothers, why is your chapter now dormant?

my chapter has been "dormant" since 1991. i pledged much later and made the best decision of my life when i chose to pledge there. i've seen what the other fraternities called brotherhood. it was nothing compared to what was evident as soon as i met the brothers of my organization. since you don't know the reasons for the dormant status, i find it hard to believe that you can judge what goes on there. i'm still extremely close to every brother that i met while there and large numbers of alumni that were there long before me. that's brotherhood, not just a college experience but a lifetime bond that we have and instill into our pledge classes. hazing is an extremely loose term, and is not the reason that we became "dormant" to begin with. we have thrived long after our national hq left us based on our ideals of brotherhood, alumni support, the support of other chapters, and a desire to not let something that meant so much to so many die. i have never been beaten or publicly humiliated, that is dumb and something that we would never do to somebody who we would want to call brother. don't try to throw me into the mix with some of these other orgs who make the news because of death and alcohol poisoning. i simply said that making something more difficult than a little memorization makes it more worthwhile in my point of view. there's a reason that we have a choice when it comes to choosing what organization we affiliate with.

Wouldn't this count as a response?

Guess I hit a sore subject. Silly me...

thats why i changed it

Whether it's biological or cultural, I do think there are differences over how men and women bond.

For women, at least in the NPC culture, I do not think hazing works well at all. A friend of mine pledged a local that hazed very badly (not that all locals haze, but this did) and she resents her sorority so much. All of us that had the standard, no hazing NPC new member educations loved it. Although we may joke about how we wanted to be hazed, none of us really would have wanted to.

For guys (and maybe it is because my guy friends from back home are very much "jock/alpha male" types) it seems to work. No idea why. Every one of them was hazed (at a variety of different schools) and they have no regrets whatsoever. One of them was actually furious because a guy in his pledge class called into nationals and STOPPED his hazing...he wanted to continue it in full to prove himself.

While that would obviously not work for all guys, it seems like there are certain fraternities where it really does bond a pledge class together and there is little to no resentment.

My point is that I think the problem is that women who come from NPC and men who came from chapters where it would not work are voicing their opinions on hazing in chapters where it clearly works with no resentment or hard feelings. Illegal? Yes. It should obviously be illegal. But just because you don't think it would have been effective in your chapter doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of fraternity chapters where it continues strongly and effectively.

What exactly do you mean by "dormant"? Is your chapter recognized as a local fraternity by the university or are you working on becoming active again with your former HQ?

We need to keep in mind that some of what's classified as hazing today is laughable and ridiculous. When members talk about wanting their pledge processes to be more challenging, they're not always talking about the abusive stuff.

His chapter -- the former Lambda Xi chapter of Lambda Chi Alpha -- lost its charter in 1991. It is not recognized by Slippery Rock University.

Here's the GC thread on it.

My guess would be that he pledged underground.

thank you, i never once mentioned any kind of forced consumption of alcohol, physical or verbal abuse, but the second someone reads my post that is the first thing that comes to mind.

OMG TEH GHOST GLO!!!!

FWIW, lack of on-campus housing and the general laid-backness of the Greek system makes membership in an underground group more palatable at SRU than it would be at, say, Penn State or Ole Miss. What I am trying to say is that you don't get a super ton more advantages for obeying the rules.

Doesn't make it right, but it's the way it is.

My sorority claims not to haze. It definitely does not do anything hardcore like beating up pledges or forced alcohol consumption, but the actives are encouraged to yell at the pledges throughout the initiation week, telling them they're the worst pledge class ever, we can't believe they made it this far, they embarass us, etc. Pledges have to wear different costumes throughout the week, meant to be embarassing, and they have to sing certain songs on demand. And thorughout the whole pledge period we had demerits and merits--we were told you would have to work off the demerits once you became a sister, and a lot of us got thousands of demerits from sisters when they were drunk. One girl in my class dropped based completely off how many demerits she got. We were warned working them off would be a pain, and she had over 50 000. We found out after we initiated they didn't mean anything.
I'm a pretty new sister and I really disagreed with the process, but we were told it was to show our determination and loyalty to our group. Although I do have a stronger bond with my class, I felt way more loyal to the sorority as a whole before the initiation week. I think hazing can bring the pledges together but causes division within the sorority. There are sisters my class absolutely hate and avoid as much as possible based on their behaviour during our initiation.

And what organization calls you a member?

It's not national, and I'm not posting the name.

That's what I don't get.

If you're so damn proud of how you guys bonded and that you feel more loyalty to your sorority, why be a wuss and not be proud to promote your organization?

Wait...What?
I said I felt more loyal to the group before initiation week. I feel like hazing didn't help us bond, except as a pledge class. And that just goes with the whole, we hated the actives together thing. It caused a seperation between the new class and the sisters. It's the only aspect of the group I strongly disagree with, and I would not have gone through the entire pledge process if I'd known what was awaiting me in the last week.

ETA: I'm not proud of the hazing thing, sorry if that wasn't clear before...I'm not trying to start a fight.

Live-in and I had a conversation last night when I mentioned that most first time posters on GC bump the hazing threads.

He said "I just don't get it. I mean, I'm not greek but I don't think I could be if a group of guys decided to tell me what to do at any point."

I gave him the eye. "You played club hockey in college. You can't tell me that you guys didn't haze."

He adamantly refused that allegation. I asked him if the new guys were encouraged or made to do something silly.

He smiled and said "Well the new guys drank out of a hockey skate at our parties."

:eek: GROSS! I told him that was hazing and he was adamant that he never drank out of it, and no one made them do it.

Anyway it turned into a long conversation about hazing and what it does, the psychological effects, and how even if someone isn't made to do something, or told that they won't be accepted by the group, a person can still feel like they should do something that they normally wouldn't in order to be accepted and it would still be hazing.

Regardless, this thread is completely nonsensical to me anymore so I thought I would share another completely nonsensical story about hazing.

Sorry Ivy173, I read you wrong.

The good thing is that you're not the only one who feels that hazing your pledges is not the way to do things. Hopefully one day you and your sisters can change the way things are done. Pledges may not have to go through physical abuse nor have to consume alcohol for now, but you never know what'll happen a few years from now. It only takes one person to screw it up for everyone.

agzg - I think it is a really common thing for sports teams to haze new members - probably more so (or at least as much) as fraternities.

Last year my son was a "rookie" on a college sports team. The rookies had to set up and take down practice equipment before every practice and do other jobs that are a pain in the butt. That would technically be considered hazing, but noone looked at it that way.

I don't think he had to drink anything out of a cleat though (that I know of;))

We did a 'search' sort of thing to find out who our bigs were.. we went from spot to spot around campus, and our bigs were at our last stop. Technically, we couldn't call that a scavenger hunt, because that would be considered hazing. I think things like that are a little excessive; all of the girls enjoyed the scavenger hunt a lot!
I think any sort of real 'hazing', such as intimidation or humiliation, or even yelling at pledges, is wrong. How can groups that pride themselves on sisterhood turn around and be so callous to their own sisters? I think that new member education programs are beneficial, but they need to be taught from the viewpoint of the necessity of knowing your organization's roots and traditions, not that you're just a crappy pledge and have to do all this work.
Just my view.. I'm glad my sisters don't support hazing at all, and if they did, I would have lost a LOT of respect for them.

Scavenger hunts aren't allowed because they are always considered hazing, it falls under risk management, which includes our rules about activities, overnight trips, alcohol, hazing, and so on. A scavenger hunt could be used for hazing, but a bigger concern is related to insurance and risk management. For scavenger hunts people rush around and perhaps items are stolen or are inappropriate, and the concern is for safety. It is in effect because a woman could get in a car accident and file a claim against our Fraternity because she was trying to make it to the designated spot with her items at a chapter event, just as she could file a claim against the fraternity because a fire exit wasn't properly marked and she got burned in a fire.

If I remember right almost all groups have similar risk management policies due to our common insurance carrier and pooling risk.n If you're interested in Alpha Gam policies more information about this is in the Collegiate Leadership Manual.

for all the people who say hazing doesn't happen much anymore...for some reason cornell writes up every incident on this website...i find it pretty interesting....

http://www.hazing.cornell.edu/incide...ngBlotter.html

that's a good amount of orgs on there...

Did anyone here say that it doesn't happen much anymore? If so, I definitely missed that.

Huh?

:confused::confused::confused:

Who said it doesn't happen much?

Right. Probably no one. But hey, because it still happens fairly often, that's the perfect reason to do it. I know that I commit hate crimes, cheat on all my significant others, and steal money from my friends. It's no big deal, though.. a lot of other people do these things, too, so it makes it ok.

:rolleyes:

I've seen paddling with my own eyes although I am not a member and will not say the name of this organization the response i got when i asked why was " there drunk they won't even feel it" what is the point of that?