Originally Posted by Firehouse (Post 1635786)

Thanks for your kind remarks about the Pikes and the house.
Two things:
First, my understanding is that your alumni are conducting a capital campaign to buy the "clubhouse". That option is there for Grove fraternities living in non-equity houses. I assume you'll bulldoze it and build an impressive house of your own design, connected to the gothic housing building. I hope you do it; Phi Gam has done really well since moving to the Grove. I don't kow what's going to happen with those two empty lots. ATO alumni tell me they're going to build, but they won't be back on campus until 2009 and I don't know how long it will take them to grow large enough to support a 60-man house. Who knows what will happen with the Sig Eps? They had already begun construction when they got suspended. I don't even know what the University's position is on their chapter.

Second, with respect, I don't understand your including KA in the first tier. I like the KAs; I thikn they're good guys. But they don't "do" anything. Nothing. They compete in the small fraternity intramural league and they don't do particulaly well. They have no campus leaders, varsity athletes, high profile members. From what I've seen, Phi Sig and Delts are far more aggressive, larger, more athletic and more popular. Again, I don't dislike KA. I just don't see them as a group to be anything special, and I don't think the top sororities do either.
Sigma Chi I understand. They don't "do" anything either, but they have a big chapter and they're popular with the top sororities.

Good luck to you in pursuing a new house. You should be able to raise the money and buy the clubhouse, and that will lead the way for other chapters to do the same.

Originally Posted by Firehouse (Post 1635991)

You've got it wrong Banditone; at least it's wrong here. On this campus all the top fraternities are considered to be such because the most impressive guys are drawn to them. All the top fraternities are paired with the top sororities. Some of the top houses, like Sigma Chi, pretty much ignore everything but social. No one cares; they're good. Others, like Delt and Phi Sig, are jock houses. No one cares; they're good and tied in with top sororities.
No one here defines a "top fraternity" by their commitment to philanthropy. Some do community service; some don't. The only defining characteristic for the top fraternities here is the quality of members and overall chapter size.

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes (Post 1636319)

Numbers are still important. Your house could have Jimmy Buffet, Chipper Jones, and GW Bush and sororities still wouldn't mix with you because you have 4 guys.

Originally Posted by PhiGam (Post 1636353)

Having over 120 guys is stupid though.

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes (Post 1636464)

We've got a little over 150, averaging about 45 per pledge class, plus about 10 spring guys, and of course we'll lose some older guys to dues, transfer, etc. That said I know who everyone in my chapter is.

Originally Posted by Firehouse (Post 1636481)

"We've got a little over 150, averaging about 45 per pledge class, plus about 10 spring guys, and of course we'll lose some older guys to dues, transfer, etc. That said I know who everyone in my chapter is."

Same here. We'll initiate 50 a year; with graduation losses and drop-outs, chapter size is stable at around 180. Brotherhood in a large chapter is enhanced by group identity and winning. Define winning any way you want; whatever fires up the Brothers and makes them proud.

However, I do believe the size of a chapter is natually tied to the campus. If you're at Virginia, there are 33 fraternities and the "best" fraternities have an average size of around 60.
If you're at Ole Miss, there are far fewer fraternities, but the top chapter sizes are very large. It depends on the culture of the campus. If you're at Ole Miss, you cannot effectively maintain a 60-man chapter and compete with the Phi Delts, Sigma Nus, Pikes, Sigma Chis, etc. (I know I'm missing some).

Originally Posted by PhiGam (Post 1636556)

Yeah, you guys are huge here and I'm not saying that its bad for everyone, I just don't want to be in a fraternity that big.

Originally Posted by baci (Post 1636384)

I want to chime in here - I really love how the guys can discuss tiers and thoughts on why one group may rise above the next or be of a certain caliber (you get what I mean). This just isn't something that is easily done when discussing sororities. It is always drama and HUGE issues. Kuddos to you all for handling it well.

One thing - PADFSUGirl2K2, when you say research, what would you advise someone to do? I would like to hear your perpective on this.