I couldn't agree with you more. I think that was what UGAalum94 meant. Unless you sit at the very top on a campus, every chapter has to be careful that they have it all together beginning with alumnae advisors who get it and understand the campus environment. A positive Panhellenic doesn't hurt either unfortunately sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

Yep. But I think, especially with fraternities, they enjoy influencing the sorority hierarchy because in turn they can have more status, and when your 18-22, relative group status is kind of a big deal.

We can't forget what we're dealing with.

(I think status remains a really big deal for some people, but I think as you age, you just worry about who you are and don't enjoy your group being a bigger deal than another group.)

HAts off to you UGAalum - your comments were spot on!

On a campus like the U of Arkansas, the tradition and reputation of the top houses is set in stone. They would have to get in major national news type trouble with the law, or something like that to adversely affect their houses' reputations enought to seriously hurt their recruitment.

The less strong houses are, as you so aptly described, more susceptible to a negative image, bad recruitment class, etc. because their position is more precarious.

As far as tent talk, etc. even with the strong houses, there is trash talk about them but it does very little to negatively affect them because the reputation is so strong around the state. Even people (hs girls) not affiliated with the university are aware of which houses are traditionally the strongest.

Ehh...yes and no. Sometimes, having one weak chapter will boost other chapters. As was said before, if one chapter is weak and then gone, as soon as they leave another chapter is the 'bottom' chapter. There is NO way to have a system where every chapter is equal.

Yes, women have come a long way but you are so right, the guys still like to control and the girls follow.

I think it may be getting worse as some campuses get to be almost 60% female overall with a higher percentage of Greeks among women than men.

If socially "desirable" guys are seen as scarce, women can do stupid things to each other if they don't reflect on their values.

Yes, women have come a long way. Yes, guys still like to control. But not all girls like to follow, and many women prefer to lead.

Said like a true University of Kentucky Sorority woman! ;)

I certainly hope this is the case.

Do y'all feel that a fraternity chapter(s) can influence (control) a sorority's status that much?

It just depends on the nature of the particular systems.
In a system that prides itself on "southern tradition," I think certain fraternities can.

I doubt that a traditionally solid chapter could be destroyed or something like that.

But if you made a list of sorority chapters by first round return rates, I think that four or five elitist fraternities deciding not to associate with the bottom third of this list could keep those groups from ever having an easy time of it in recruitment. If, on the other hand, the same fraternities elected to have socials with and regard and talk about those groups as worthy and desirable, I think the groups would be seen by PNMs are worthy and desirable.

Some of it's the guys' opinions; most of it's the girls caring what the guys think.

I'd agree that there wouldn't ever be a Panhellenic community of 3 or more chapters where every chapter is perceived as "equal" socially. However, with regards to achievement, I think it would be much easier to find several campuses where all chapters are equal (or pretty darn close) in their achievement in recruitment (yes, there are campuses where every group takes quota), scholarship, campus involvement, leadership, service/philanthropy etc. Elon comes to mind. Although there are chapters that are perceived as "higher up on the social ladder," they are all very high-achieving chapters in good standing with their respective HQs.

Also, the issue of how "toxic" a Greek community is comes into play as to how close a Panhellenic community can come to equality. There are campuses where there is a "tier" system, but it's not talked about much, members of different chapters are friendly with one another, there aren't bitter "rivalries" between or among chapters, and there is a general Panhellenic spirit. There are also campuses where the sororities love to trash the bottom group until they fold, and then they choose the next victim.

I think with the new release method we are seeing more campuses where the chapters are equal in number. Of course they will all have varying degrees of popularity with fraternities, perceived status, etc. But the more houses you have, the more opportunities you offer for a pnm to fit in, and the higher percentage of GLO members you can have on your campus. That's what I meant by a strong system - not that all groups are perceived as "top tier", but that all groups can obtain a size large enough to continue to operate.

This was exactly what happened...

I wasn't going to spell it out completely but certain decisions such as this...a certain girl was in question for a very long time...they finally voted her in.

With a lack of tradition and poor decision making, it will eventually sink this chapter here in a year or two.

I forgot to address this:
Is that in Arizona? Then it's not a Southern fraternity. The stuff that you know about sororities...doesn't really matter to Southern sororities. Some stuff is correct, to be sure but it's another world in my opinion.

I doubt my cousin "broke any chapter rules" by telling me what was going on in the voting by telling me about something that happened four or five years previous to her telling me, and her being out of college for at least two years after she told me. If she did break rules on such a past event, I don't think it matters.

i have seen it happen. college guys meet incoming freshmen girls and decide to give them the 4 1 1 on which sorority they think they should pledge. some girls, either because they want to impress the guy, or think that he, being a college guy, knows it all, or for some other reason, takes what the guy says to heart and decides it is abc, def , ghi or nothing. she also shares this information with her friends and with her rush group.

the guys don't take in to consideration that the girl may not fit in with the recommended sororities or that she might not be deemed bid-worthy by the top tier sororities-his fraternity may not even be able to get a social with those sororities, but he will still recommend them. don't know why guys care, except that it makes them seem in the know. hopefully, most girls won't heed the advice, but the seed has been planted and it is hard for young women, eager to get into the college social scene, to ignore.