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- - Is Georgia going to execute an Innocent man? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=88689)

I actually support the death penalty in theory, but don't trust humans to carry it out perfectly and justly every time.

I do not support the death penalty (in any case, even if he or she was guilty, even if he or she was a vile human being) in practice, due to the systemic problems with humans running and participating in a human justice system.

As my husband said, if a cop is killed SOMEBODY has to die. Fair? Just? No. But probably accurate.

I do not feel particularly strongly about this Troy Davis case for a number of reasons including the fact that the cause for equality was and always will be stronger than one person. The cause for change does not require that you agree with every campaign for change. I do not want people treating this cause like a fad or something cool to do with facebook.

With that said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rashad..._b_975152.html

http://www.colorofchange.org/about/

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubaiSis (Post 2093724)

Here's my opinion - life in prison is a lot harder on the person than killing them which I personally think lets them off the hook. And as a bonus, if it turns out the person was in fact innocent, it can be righted later. Plus, if a person was heinous enough (Jeffrey Dahmer) the prison population will take care of the problem. I think he lasted 2 weeks in prison, a damn site shorter than if he'd have gotten the death penalty which would have taken years to process. So my bent is really toward upping the punishment, not religious value.

This.

Just out of curiosity, have any of the posters read Grisham's The Confession? I'm far from his biggest fan, but if you want to discuss the death penalty, it gives you a lot to think about.

Quote:

For decades, liberals tried persuading Americans to abolish the death penalty, using their usual argument: hysterical sobbing.

...

But unless members of the public are going to personally review trial transcripts in every death penalty case, they have no way of knowing the truth. The media certainly won't tell them.

It's nearly impossible to receive a death sentence these days -- unless you do something completely crazy like shoot a cop in full view of dozens of witnesses in a Burger King parking lot, only a few hours after shooting at a passing car while exiting a party.

That's what Troy Davis did in August 1989. Davis is the media's current baby seal of death row.

After a two-week trial with 34 witnesses for the state and six witnesses for the defense, the jury of seven blacks and five whites took less than two hours to convict Davis of Officer Mark MacPhail's murder, as well as various other crimes. Two days later, the jury sentenced Davis to death.

Now, a brisk 22 years after Davis murdered Officer MacPhail, his sentence will finally be administered this week -- barring any more of the legal shenanigans that have kept taxpayers on the hook for Davis' room and board for the past two decades.

(The average time on death row is 14 years. Then liberals turn around and triumphantly claim the death penalty doesn't have any noticeable deterrent effect. As the kids say: Duh.)

It has been claimed -- in The New York Times and Time magazine, for example -- that there was no "physical evidence" connecting Davis to the crimes that night.

Davis pulled out a gun and shot two strangers in public. What "physical evidence" were they expecting? No houses were broken into, no cars stolen, no rapes or fistfights accompanied the shootings. Where exactly would you look for DNA? And to prove what?

I suppose it would be nice if the shell casings from both shootings that night matched. Oh wait -- they did. That's "physical evidence."

It's true that the bulk of the evidence against Davis was eyewitness testimony. That tends to happen when you shoot someone in a busy Burger King parking lot.

Eyewitness testimony, like all evidence tending to show guilt, has gotten a bad name recently, but the "eyewitness" testimony in this case did not consist simply of strangers trying to distinguish one tall black man from another. For one thing, several of the eyewitnesses knew Davis personally.

The bulk of the eyewitness testimony established the following:

Two tall, young black men were harassing a vagrant in the Burger King parking lot, one in a yellow shirt and the other in a white Batman shirt. The one in the white shirt used a brown revolver to pistol-whip the vagrant. When a cop yelled at them to stop, the man in the white shirt ran, then wheeled around and shot the cop, walked over to his body and shot him again, smiling.

Some eyewitnesses described the shooter as wearing a white shirt, some said it was a white shirt with writing, and some identified it specifically as a white Batman shirt. Not one witness said the man in the yellow shirt pistol-whipped the vagrant or shot the cop.

Several of Davis' friends testified -- without recantation -- that he was the one in a white shirt. Several eyewitnesses, both acquaintances and strangers, specifically identified Davis as the one who shot Officer MacPhail.

Now the media claim that seven of the nine witnesses against Davis at trial have recanted.

First of all, the state presented 34 witnesses against Davis -- not nine -- which should give you some idea of how punctilious the media are about their facts in death penalty cases.

Among the witnesses who did not recant a word of their testimony against Davis were three members of the Air Force, who saw the shooting from their van in the Burger King drive-in lane. The airman who saw events clearly enough to positively identify Davis as the shooter explained on cross-examination, "You don't forget someone that stands over and shoots someone."

Recanted testimony is the least believable evidence since it proves only that defense lawyers managed to pressure some witnesses to alter their testimony, conveniently after the trial has ended. Even criminal lobbyist Justice William Brennan ridiculed post-trial recantations.

Three recantations were from friends of Davis,making minor or completely unbelievable modifications to their trial testimony. For example, one said he was no longer sure he saw Davis shoot the cop, even though he was five feet away at the time. His remaining testimony still implicated Davis.

One alleged recantation, from the vagrant's girlfriend (since deceased), wasn't a recantation at all, but rather reiterated all relevant parts of her trial testimony, which included a direct identification of Davis as the shooter.

Only two of the seven alleged "recantations" (out of 34 witnesses) actually recanted anything of value -- and those two affidavits were discounted by the court because Davis refused to allow the affiants to testify at the post-trial evidentiary hearing, even though one was seated right outside the courtroom, waiting to appear.

The court specifically warned Davis that his refusal to call his only two genuinely recanting witnesses would make their affidavits worthless. But Davis still refused to call them -- suggesting, as the court said, that their lawyer-drafted affidavits would not have held up under cross-examination.

With death penalty opponents so fixated on Davis' race -- he's black -- it ought to be noted that all the above witnesses are themselves African-American. The first man Davis shot in the car that night was African-American.

I notice that the people so anxious to return this sociopathic cop-killer to the street don't live in his neighborhood.

There's a reason more than a dozen courts have looked at Davis' case and refused to overturn his death sentence. He is as innocent as every other executed man since at least 1950, which is to say, guilty as hell.

One last thing. We would have actual physical blood splatter evidence all over Troy Davis' blood-soaked shorts BUT HIS MOTHER WASHED THEM RIGHT BEFORE HE FLED TO ATLANTA AFTER SHOOTING THE OFFICER that very night.

Yeah, you read that right. He shoots a guy in the face, then shoots an officer in the chest and the face, runs to his momma's house so she can destroy the bloody evidence [note: this tends happens when you stand over someone and shoot them in the face...you will most definitely get blood on your shorts], then flees to Atlanta immediately thereafter.

Innocent? Give me a moafs;ladkfjsdf;oifn;lk BREAK!

If you're bored, read this article, too: http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/0...ve-troy-davis/. It helps explain how the bullshit argument of "The other guy did it! The whitnesses said so!" is just that. BULLSHIT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2094058)

I will try my best not to be rude here...the race card had absolutely nothing to do with this case. How is that, you ask?

7 of the 12 jurors were black. The first guy he shot that day (in the face by the way) was, you guessed it, black. Almost all of the people who testified against him were, holycraphowdidthishappen, BLACK.

This wasn't about race. If you read between the lines, it wasn't even about the constitutionality of the death penalty (they tried to argue this one, too). This was about a last ditch effort of a guilty, gun-wielding thug trying to save himself. Spare me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHeartUGA (Post 2095606)

I will try my best not to be rude here...the race card had absolutely nothing to do with this case. How is that, you ask?

7 of the 12 jurors were black. The first guy he shot that day (in the face by the way) was, you guessed it, black. Almost all of the people who testified against him were, holycraphowdidthishappen, BLACK.

This wasn't about race. If you read between the lines, it wasn't even about the constitutionality of the death penalty (they tried to argue this one, too). This was about a last ditch effort of a guilty, gun-wielding thug trying to save himself. Spare me.

You failed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by agzg (Post 2093769)

Me to.:cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubaiSis (Post 2093848)

As my husband said, if a cop is killed SOMEBODY has to die. Fair? Just? No. But probably accurate.

Maybe in TX but not in MI :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubaiSis (Post 2093724)

Here's my opinion - life in prison is a lot harder on the person than killing them which I personally think lets them off the hook. And as a bonus, if it turns out the person was in fact innocent, it can be righted later. Plus, if a person was heinous enough (Jeffrey Dahmer) the prison population will take care of the problem. I think he lasted 2 weeks in prison, a damn site shorter than if he'd have gotten the death penalty which would have taken years to process. So my bent is really toward upping the punishment, not religious value.

But wouldn't upping the punishment include....DEATH PENALTY?

It's been my observation that most criminals are very selfish people....their crimes are based on personal gain and they value themselves and their life much more than others. If the death penalty was an "easy out" like you said, you'd have people ASKING for death during sentencing....yet it's always seems to be the other way around...

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetaj (Post 2093571)

I'm not so sure it's okay without any doubt, either :/ idk. Who are we to take away everything from another human being.

If a certain individual believes he has the right to take another mans life, I won't shed any tears for him when we the people decide to take his life in response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHeartUGA (Post 2095603)

I'm from Savannah and you can all stop believing all this BS the media is stirring up about Troy Davis because THE MAN IS GUILTY.

I'm not here to argue about the death penalty with any of you because I am actually against it. HOWEVER....I'm freaking tired of all of this "I am Troy Davis!" "He's Innocent!" bullcrap. The state of Georgia allows for the death penalty and a jury of his peers decided that he deserved it after shooting 2 men in the face on the same damn day. Their decision, not mine [see first sentence of this paragraph]. If you don't like the death penalty, write your Congressmen, not Greekchat.

Anywho...

To illustrate my point, I present the eloquent words of one Ann Coulter (whether you like her or not, she has expressed everything that I'm too tired to write myself at this hour):

One last thing. We would have actual physical blood splatter evidence all over Troy Davis' blood-soaked shorts BUT HIS MOTHER WASHED THEM RIGHT BEFORE HE FLED TO ATLANTA AFTER SHOOTING THE OFFICER that very night.

Yeah, you read that right. He shoots a guy in the face, then shoots an officer in the chest and the face, runs to his momma's house so she can destroy the bloody evidence [note: this tends happens when you stand over someone and shoot them in the face...you will most definitely get blood on your shorts], then flees to Atlanta immediately thereafter.

Innocent? Give me a moafs;ladkfjsdf;oifn;lk BREAK!

If you're bored, read this article, too: http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/0...ve-troy-davis/. It helps explain how the bullshit argument of "The other guy did it! The whitnesses said so!" is just that. BULLSHIT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHeartUGA (Post 2095606)

I will not try my best not to be rude here....

1. Race is not a card and only idiots use the "race card" phrase.

2. You say that race is not a factor yet you rant and rave about the Black jurors, Black victim, and Black eye witnesses as though their Blackness proves a point. Make up your mind.

These are not mathematical equations with Black (+1) + Black (-1)= NO BLACK (0). If it could be an equation, it would be Black (1) + Black (1) = A WHOLE LOTTA BLACK (2). Most violent crimes are intraracial with eye witnesses (when they come forward) of the same race as the alleged perpetrator. They did a better job with the "jury of your peers" than happens in many cases with racial and ethnic minority defendants. But, all of that Black does not erase the correlates of race that permeate society and therefore the criminal justice and legal systems (even when all parts of the cj and legal system are themselves not racist or discriminatory, as William Wilbanks posited in his 1987 The Myth of a Racist Criminal Justice System)

3. As my post that you so incorrectly replied to states, the cause for equality is not about agreeing or disagree with the Troy Davis case or any single case. I do not believe he was innocent yet I believe his case is like other cases that speak to a number of factors that researchers and social activists pay attention to.

4. Stop pretending as though you hold some objective truth. Based on your tone and your words, you are pretending as though you have some inside knowledge and that the media is not fueling your viewpoint. Where did you get YOUR information from? Don't answer, I already know you got it from the media.

5. Spare yourself. These topics do not stop being about the death penalty, race, social class or other extralegal and legal factors based on whether you agree or disagree with the outcome. Learn that.

Thanks for joining us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2095627)

If a certain individual believes he has the right to take another mans life, I won't shed any tears for him when we the people decide to take his life in response.

What about women offenders and women victims?

Gender matters as does race, social class, and so forth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2095624)

Me to.:cool:

Well hot damn, we agree on something.

I feel the need to throw a party. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IHeartUGA (Post 2095603)

You'd do better to write it yourself. Ann Coulter isn't eloquent nor is she objective by any measure whatsoever; her only goal is to stir the pot and put the spotlight on herself, so I really don't care what she has to say about it. Besides, the quote was way too long. I skimmed it and could easily see that you did exactly what she derided: Making judgments about guilt or innocence without having reviewed the entire record yourself.

If you'd read this thread, you'd see lots of us were not assuming Davis's innocence. Instead, we were wondering whether there was a chance of innocence. Very different things and hardly an unreasonable question to ask before an execution.

Yes, a jury of his peers found him guilty, convicted him and sentenced him to death. As a lawyer, I take that very seriously. But as a lawyer, I also know that juries sometimes make mistakes, either on their own or because the evidence presented to them isn't what it should be. I also know that guilty people often claim innocence. And I also know that those convicted sometimes actually are innocent.

Was Troy Davis guilty? I don't know, because I, like you, haven't heard all the evidence or reviewed all the record. A jury found him to be so and multiple courts let that verdict stand, and I want to trust that and would not lightly disregard it. Now that he has been exceuted, I certainly hope he was indeed guilty.

But conversations about what may be broken about our legal system and how it can be improved so that there can be confidence in outcomes are always a good thing, not the BS that you dismiss it as.