Jon, you keep saying things along the lines of "good chapters haze? How come they get closed down then?" which doesn't really make sense. Good chapters get closed, it happens. If you're using who nationals doesn't close as some sort of test for how good a chapter is, you're waaaaay off.

Not sure, but I think some comments got mixed up here.
Someone else, IIRC, made the comment that good chapters haze....I questioned that comment.

And generally, from what I have personally seen and from what I have been told and heard, the chapters that are getting closed down are not chapters that I would come close to calling being good.....at the time they are closed......perhaps in the past, perhaps once again down the road...

Again, just my POV/IMHO based on my life experiences and knowledge..............Including losing my own chapter house....

Jon this is so true because of all of the laws that have come up because of stupid harmful hazing.

If it was not for the news of stupidity, the GLOs would not be of such a crappy reputation and Insurance costs going up.:o

Well I think there are probably a lot of chapters who might have been closed down if they weren't such good chapters...I have no reservations in saying that the majority of large southern university chapters haze in some form (or do something Nationals would disagree with) but they rarely get punished. Usually the university comes down on them, but nationals lets them handle it on their own, at least thats what has happened here...

I guess it depends on the National doesnt it?:(

If that is the case, are they the ones who promagate the situtation?:o

You just brought up a rather interest point or two here that, that to the best of my knowledge, has never been bought up.

For the moment, I will make this a "large" statement/question: If there is a problem with a chapter, does it make a difference ( or differences) in just what/which regulator does the active punishment?
Off the top of my head that would be the school or (I)HO. Of course if police/DA et al get involved, I would think that there would be very little room for questions....

No, I am referring to hazing which is used to build bonds within the pledge class and make them respect the house. I'm not talking about making pledges drink handles of whiskey and eat dog shit. I have said that the "right" kind of hazing is extremely useful. I have also stated repeatedly that I, in no way, condone hazing that is dangerous/life threatening.

Early morning house cleans, study halls, Pledge reviews, member interviews, pledge uniforms, scavenger hunts, pledge trips, etc. etc. Are just fine to me. You can disagree all you want, but these things teach pledges to respect their house, respect the history of the chapter/fraternity, act/dress like gentlemen, respect each other, and build bonds within their class. If you still take all this as illegal and "outdated"...then i'm sorry. Maybe this is why Southern fraternity chapters are among the best in the country, without a doubt.

Well, I live in the real world so my opinions and posts aren't confined to GC stuff. In the real world, requiring study halls of pledges is hazing.

You don't know what he was referring to.

I don't.

If you were saying that you disagree with his OPINION then just say that without all the hoopla and gooblygob.

BOOO to you for letting jon1856 direct you through this thread. :rolleyes:

Exactly. ;)

Brother Mac'
This is the first time, that I can recall, that I have ever seen you make a list like the above.
Interesting list.
Why?
For the most part and in general form, it is what we did.
So, if for some reason, we have missed a major meeting of the minds along the way, I am sorry.
Five Apples,

And what is so bad in politly advising someone new to read a thread from the start?

I agree with you.

I don't think we missed something.....I just think that there are FAR too many people on this site that automatically think something God awful horrible when the word "hazing" gets brought up. I think a list might have been in order to express some positives that can come out of the right kind of "hazing."

It gets fairly old hearing Earp and DA bark about things being illegal/against nationals/raising insurance costs etc. etc.........so I figured I'd try to explain from my point of view.

I just think that pledges should earn the right to be a member. I think that allowing them a free pass to initiation a month after they sign a bid card is horrible and bad for a chapter as a whole (I say this because I know of some chapters that do exactly this.) The "new school" attitute of having New Members, Associate Members, etc. etc. just doesn't fly too well with me.