Ktsnake,

I'm not going to say that there aren't people who are lazy and irresponsible on the welfare rolls, because there are. I can understand how you don't want to support them.

What I've never understood about most conservatives I've argued with is that they never want to actually give any help to the people who are working hard, but still can't get by; the people who are working 50-60 hours a week but still live below the poverty line. If you are against redistribution of wealth, or more specifically government handouts that redistribute wealth, why not be in favor of initiatives that get people out below the poverty line, or at least high enough so that they can survive working only 40 hours a week? If you are so opposed to welfare, then look at finding ways to make welfare obsolete. Make getting a job so attractive that people dont' want to remain on welfare because they can do so much better if they get off of it! The fact is that there are millions of people out there who look at the jobs around them and decide that they are better off if they are on welfare. They get some sort of guarenteed income with out having to do anything, they can look after their kids, and they can get to a doctor. If you made it so that every job meant you were getting considerably more money, your kids were cared for and you got some sort of health care coverage - all without having to work hours away, or 70 hours a week - no one but the truly desolate would remain on the welfare rolls. That's what it comes down to in my mind - make getting a job an attractive quality, make sure the basic concerns of people are being met and they will get the hell out of a situation that is worse for them. Make the term "working poor" an oxymoron and the United States will be a better place.

Maybe in a perfect world your post would make sense....but the world we live in is far from perfect. Fact is, there will always be poor people, there will always be sickness and diesease, there will always be people who struggle and there will always be people who feel like more can be done to help the less fortunate.

Please don't missunderstand me. I'm not saying we should turn our backs on the less fortunate. Every year I clean out my wardrobe and donate clothes to the salvation army/goodwill. I give food during christmas drives to the charities. Believe me, there are plenty of ways to help the poor other than taxing the wealthy the way Kerry wants to. The business of the less fortunate should be left up to the state and local governments. Its not the federal government's problem. Some states have more poor people than others. Does that mean that Nebraska farmers should help support crack addicted junkies living in New York City? Or should the mill worker living in north carolina, who puts in 12 hour days, have to help support the single mother living in Los Angeles because she left her husband all because she thought he was cheating on her? Or should the family in surburban Chicago have to help keep alive the man who had no health insurance and yet kept having unprotected sex with gay men while living in San Fransisco? Well, what do you think?

As for your tax paragraph: Most of what you spoke on comes from state funding, not federal funding. When we speak of taxes and Bush...we're talking about federal income taxes.

Dude, you live in Oklahoma. Try living in a state that charges more for their insurance. It's not as easy as you might think.

I got the sweetest letter on my 23rd birthday stating that I would be dropped from my father's excellent insurance, despite the fact that I'm still a student and petitioned to have my coverage extended, and because the new provider doesn't cover people past their 23rd b-day (our old one covered me until I was 25). Even though my state of permanent residence is Florida, I wasn't able to get BCBS (for $87/month, Florida is really cheap too) until my student insurance kicks in next month because I don't live there 9 months out of the year. If I gone through New York, a lesser BCBS policy would have been $400/month--basically the same as COBRA payments. Despite my piddly intern-architect pay, I don't even qualify for some temporary insurance because my salary is too high, and others were just as much as, if not more than, COBRA. Fortunately, my parents were willing and able to help me pay COBRA until the student insurance kicks in.

What if we hadn't been able to afford COBRA? What if I hadn't been able to pay for a shitty NY State PPO, or worse, HMO? If something had happened in those 4 months, I would have been in a world of shit. Would that make me irresponsible? Would it make me lazy? No, it would just have made me the victim of lousy timing. Think about the millions of other people this happens to every year. Not everyone else has the same, relatively happy, ending.

So, not every person who finds themselves uninsured is lazy and irresponsible. There are a million different shades of gray in the world. Please realize that it's not just black and white.

A couple of things....

First off, the temp worker should start looking for a job elsewhere. It might not be in the field they want but wouldnt it be smart to look for something else if one thing isnt working or giving them what they want?

The person that quit the job because of an ailing relative.....I think the ailing relative would understand if you told them you wont be able to pay the bills if you quit the job. Everyone has sick people in their family...this is why you dont depend on the government for funds. You set money off to the side in case something like that happens. Social Security is a crock of shit. It is completely stupid to work your whole life, not save money up for your retirement and then depend on social security/medicare/medicade to help you through your times of ailment. And despite all that.....I know its hard to see a loved one go through sickness. But shit, there is a thing called natural selection. Its nature's way of doing things.

The worker....you do have a point. I think jobs should stay here in America. I think we should be doing more exporting than importing. But, the worker doesnt run the company. If he doesnt want to move to India, then go somewhere else. You think the people in Germany like the fact that there are Americans working for VolksWagen? Or they like the fact that Deutsche Bank employs a lot of Americans while their economy sucks ass right now? No, they dont. Fact is, thats just how things work in a global economy. Most americans have a couple career changes in their life time anyway.

The mother who worked at Mcdonalds....she should have had an abortion if she couldn't afford to support her baby or had relatives that could help her. Its plain stupid to have a child when you've dropped out of highschool and work at Mcdonalds. Its not fair to the child to bring it in to such a world. Or, she should have given it up for adoption if she couldnt afford the abortion.


The baby sitter...how the hell are you going to ask a couple to give you benefits from watching their kids for an evening????? The dumb brod should go look for a real job.

:eek:

RE: Health Insurance.

Would someone like to search to see who the vast majority of people without health insurance are?

-Rudey

Why is she unemployed? Um the economy sucks, lots of jobs have moved overseas...etc. I know plenty of very educated people who have lost their jobs in the past 4 years.

Why is there no one who wants to help her? We are not all as lucky as you and I are. Not everyone has family.

I was unemployed and without insurance for awhile and cut off my finger. Should i have lived with no finger because I was broke and between jobs?

Your statement generalizes. IMO, generalizing is something conservatives are good at.

But that's the point, isn't it? The world revolves around Oklahoma, didn't you know? ;)

How many are like that? I mean we keep coming up with these nice little specific cases, but how many are like this?

-Rudey

you took the words right out of my mouth.

But that's the point. We CANNOT generalize. Posts are made generalizing those unemployed w/o ins as being lazy.

Everyone I know in this predicament follows the example I stated.

The system is not perfect, but we can't just make a blanket statement that applies to everyone in every economic and educational background.

But what you don't see is that your invalidating a point based on one or two experiences. Heck you can make a thousand experiences up to try and garner sympathy but what happens when you have such a large population that doesn't want health insurance to save costs and it's their choice. So instead you leave it at "the system is not perfect" and people on each end still get screwed.

-Rudey

Oklahomans are also paid far less on average than in other states. The median income here for a household is only 38K.

In Florida, it's much higher. I certainly support tax incentives to keep jobs in the US, I support a higher minimum wage, etc. I'm more liberal than y'all probably think :D

True there are millions of shades of grey in the system. It's just that working where I do, usually on the side of divorces that has the money, I see the other side abusing social programs like hell. They lie to social workers who don't have time to see research what they're being told, they claim abuse just to get free stuff, they know all the ins and outs of the system (if many of these people weren't such wastes of space, I'd say they'd make good social workers). I grant you that what I see is mainly the abuse, when the system doesn't work, how it protects the abusers, etc. It ticks me off to no end. I'm sure they don't have that in Florida.

I'm not saying that society should turn its back on people in dire straights who are not there because of their own laziness/stupidty/ignorance, whatever. We should just know when to cut them loose.

and as for this by amycat:

Are you trying to be funny? Or do you think you're better than me because you're in California and not in someplace that you look down upon as some kind of provincial wasteland?

Have you even been to Oklahoma?

There is nothing wrong with Oklahoma.

Amycat, I hope that your finger is okay.

I agree with Munchkin's post. When I read that ktsnake paid $110/ month, I thought that he meant per week. When people I know have been unemployed, they paid at least $375/month for their insurance through COBRA. These are healthy people with no pre-existing conditions. Unemployment benefits are about $400/week. How can someone make due on that? I know so many people who have lost their jobs in the last 3 years. Some of them have had to rely on some of these programs to help them through the rough times. I see nothing wrong with that.

Rudey, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The vast majority of people without health insurance are unemployed. I cannot comment on the circumstances of their unemployment.

What percentage Cream?

-Rudey