Moot point. Just because there's no longer a stigma (yeah, right. Go home and tell your mom you're pregnant out of wedlock.) doesn't mean that someone should be forced to become a mother. If we continue to infringe upon the rights of women to do whatever they and their doctors feel is best, soon even the 12 year old girls who get raped or molested will be forced to become mothers.
Just because someone supports a woman's right to choose does not mean he/she supports drug use. There are probably drug users out there that don't support the woman's right to choose. Apples and oranges.

i said a social stigma.....not saying that families won't go balistic. good grief. and i don't think there's a person alive who doesn't agree that abortion in cases of rape/molestation are valid.....it's when a person has willful sex with someone and becomes pregnant and then doesn't want it b/c it's a burden or whatever that is ridiculous. a woman's "right to choose" is a woman's right to choose whether or not to use abortion as birth control. abortion in terms of danger to the mother or in molestation cases----BIG DIFFERENCE.

and no, not "moot", you just missed my point. :)

my point is that ppl scream "rights! rights! rights!" "right to choose" all this....well, if we were all given the "right to choose" what we do to our bodies, drugs would be legal. shouldn't take away their right to chose what goes, or does not go, into their body if we're not going to take away a woman's right to keep/destroy her fetus that left alone would be a baby.

laws are put into place to protect ppl, even from ourselves.

Well I would rather have cocaine legalized than perpetuate a system that has roughly half a million people behind bars for non-violent drug offenses.

Thats about the same amount of people that were behind bars TOTAL in 1980.

But hey, at least I am lucky I am not Black . . the amount of blacks in jail for non-violent drug offenses has increased 6 fold versus two fold for whites, even though drug use is the same in both populations.

I see your point AGD! I just took issue w/ the fact that you automatically assumed (and you know what happens when you assume...LOL) that those of us who are passionate about the pursuit of women's rights also feel as if it is one's "right" to intentionally harm the self through drugs or other means.
Didn't mean to jump down your throat. My apologies.

nonono, never thought that y'all think drugs are cool :cool:....just making a relation btwn the 2 "choices"....we cooh! :)

i try to be as dem/lib friendly as i possibly can be.....so my apologies if i was evil......on this topic, the claws can sometimes accidentally come out!

Important Info
 

The following is a subject that rarely comes up when a "pro-choice" rally, conversation, whatever takes place.

For anyone out there who has had an abortion or know someone who has:

Often times, women have difficulty accepting the abortion afterwards, in spite of positive reinforcement about "choice" and "rights". In addition to medical complications, there can also be mental, spiritual, or emotional ones. This doesn't get a lot of coverage in the media, and the women who experience these feelings think that they can't or shouldn't express them.

If this describes you or someone you know, you're not alone. A great place to explore your feelings is here: http://www.afterabortion.com/

This site is politically and religiously neutral, so there will not be judgement or backlash of you and your feelings. Just other women in the same boat looking for the same support that you are.

</public service announcement>

I see your point here, and I think it's valid. But here is my thing about adoption. I'm sure we all know people who have adopted a child before. But do you know how difficult it is for the person actually giving up the baby for adoption?

I do. And I will just say this, as someone who has seen both outcomes: in terms of the emotional consequences on the woman and her family, the differences between having an abortion and carrying your baby to term and giving it up are very very slim.

On the one hand, when given up for adoption, the mother knows the baby lived and will hopefully have a happy life. On the other hand, the mother carried the baby in her body for nine months, went through childbirth, and no matter what the consequences now wants that living, breathing child to be with her, and that baby can't. And I will also say this: many states provide a window of time where mothers who give their babies up for adoption can reclaim their child. And I also know that many mothers who can't afford to raise a child reclaim their children, because giving your baby up for adoption is so incredibly difficult.

With abortion, the mother doesn't have to suffer through that. She does suffer knowing that something that would have become a person never will.

Either way, the mother suffers, many times for the rest of her life. There is no easy solution to the problem, which is why I am 1000% pro choice. It's just not my place to say what the best decision is. I dont think it is anyone's decision but the mothers.

That's the American Way!

It must be hard finding a boyfriend if you're pro-life unless you really think any boyfriend is marriage material.

-Rudey

i also see what you are saying, but it's also why i am 1000% pro-life. pro-life requires the mother to care more for someone she doesn't know than for herself. i was friends with a girl in college who gave her baby up for adoption.......while it was super hard for her to deal with, she had the consolation that what she did was right. she took the high road and is honestly one of the bravest ppl i have ever known. and she wonders everyday about her child and it is difficult to go through, but to my knowledge, she never woke up in the middle of the night crying so hard she couldn't breathe about a nightmare she had about her faceless baby. the difference btwn the pain of adoption and abortion is the knowledge that your child is out there living its life, as opposed to the knowledge that you never even gave your child a chance. call it a fetus or not, the mother who had an abortion still destroyed what would have been a baby....and unless you're just that selfish (and really, that's all it is......it's not brave or courageous or honorable to have an abortion......), you're gonna have regrets and go through complete emotional hell...there's comfort with adoption, there's not with abortion.

being pro-life is not about the mother.....it's about the child....which is what causes the issues btwn pro-lifers and pro-choicers. pro-choicers believe it's the mother's right to choose.....pro-lifers believe it's the child's right to life. to me, one is selfish, one is not. not meaning to be harsh, but sometimes that's how the truth is............and for me, this is my truth.

I understand what you are saying, and am not trying to convince you differently, but just share with you a different point of view. I actually think it is quite brave to have an abortion, in the face of poverty, discrimination, pain, etc. To prevent the birth of a child that you cannot care for, that you would not want to consign to the less-than-attractive adoption system in this country, is hard to do. And you probably can't comprehend this feeling, and that's fine because we all have differences of opinion, but I would much rather be aborted than be born with significant disabilities, into a system of abuse and poverty, etc. I think every child deserves a loving, wonderful home, one that has the finances and emotional capacity to help the child flourish, and although it may be painful, in my opinion, it is a tough but honorable decision to take that responsibility.

And that, of course, is why there are two sides to the issue! I see abortion as a way of taking responsibility, as suffering the consequences of actions, even if the only actions you took were to never have had the opportunity to learn about birth control or you properly used birth control and it failed. And I can see that there are reasonable people in life that would choose to end their own lives (or never begin them) under certain circumstances. It's kinda like Patrick Henry: Give me Liberty or Give me Death!!! He didn't want to live in slavery to another nation, and some of us wouldn't want to live in the slavery that is severe and comprehensive physical disability or an environment of abuse, etc.

You may not agree, but at least you know that people do see it differently.

Can we kill the Christian Taliban...I mean, "Religious Right" as well. DEATH TO ALL FANATICS!!! if there's one thing i can't stand...its intolerance

I was going to go, but the day before was quadfest, the biggest party of the year here at Radford. Rally chants don't mix well with hang overs.

godfey, great post, btw. i volunteered at a family planning clinic/shelter so i have seen more than my share of those situations, and they are all too true.

as for the quote above, this is going to come out wrong, and i'm sorry but this too is my truth. i hate when people bring the word "selfish" into this kind of decision. if you want to talk about selfishness, talk about pro-lifers imposing their morality onto other people's bodies and lives. for many pro-lifers, it's not about the mother OR the child - it's about them, and their beliefs being the "correct" ones. Just because YOU think it's the right decision for you and the people you know doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

be pro life all you want. i am pro life... FOR MYSELF. but i restrict that to my own uterus and refuse to dictate to other people what the high road is for them. it's their life, their body, their decision, and their consequences.

i dont mean to come off rude, but this is an extremely sensitive issue for me. so many pro lifers are living healthy, happy lives and never see what it's like for people who are poor and impoverished, who are uneducated about or who can't afford birth control and definetly can't afford to support a child. it's easy for people to sit and preach about morality when they don't have to live through something like this, or have to see the results.

i understand what you're saying, so don't think it came out wrong. :)

i speak what i do b/c it is actually based on experience with the issue. no, i have not had an abortion, but ppl VERY close to me have. and as much as i totally, completely, 10000000% understood where they were coming from, bottom line, it was primarily looking out for their best interest.

and yeah.......not everyone knows what it is like to be impoverished, or to not be able to afford birth control, or whatever other excuse ppl come up with for having an abortion.....but just b/c you are impoverished or uneducated or whatever doesn't mean ya don't know what abstinance is. honestly, how much of a genius does it take to think, "hmm...no condom/birth control, no sex" OR how much common sense does it take to understand the consequences of an action that COULD result in a pregnany?! but again, no one wants to accept their consequences or take responsibility. if you can't afford to have the baby, put it up for adoption. other than self-defense, there is no excuse for murder. i'm sorry but this is a sensitive subject with me, too, b/c a would-be member of MY family was taken away from us.....and no matter what her excuse, it still hurts......all of us. i'm not trying to push "my" morals on anyone, i am trying to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

Just because YOU think it's the right decision for you and the people you know doesn't mean it's right for everyone.

i quote this again b/c i stand by my own quote in that being pro-life is about the child....and what is best for the child may not be best for the mother (as in being born)...that's why ppl are able to place their children up for adoption....so the mother can go back to doing what is right for her, but only after she has done right by her child.

hopefully you didn't take me as bein nasty......just tryin to make it clear how this particular pro-lifer thinks. :)

and godfrey, i DO understand and acknowledge your post as well......it all makes good sense. however, i think ppl are too quick to make decisions for these unborn children b/c they already know how they would handle situations.....but no one wants to even give these kids a chance to rise above. it has been done before, ya know. not everyone born into bad circumstances has failed in life and was worthless to society. why not give them a chance to succeed??