I think I didn't make my point clearly enough. Say I have a sister named Jenny who is a perpetual drunk driver. She's on probation with our organization, and on probation with the school. We have told her that if she screws up one more time she's out, because her behavior is damaging and embarassing to us. This is not a one time situation, but a sister who is consistently partying, going out and getting trashed, and then driving home.

Why should I have to put my social life on hold to supervise her? Why should my parents be held liable because I chose to study and/or go out to dinner rather than follow her around while she is getting drunk to make sure she doesn't drive?

Yes, we should take care of each other - but in certain situations, it gets to the point where good officers resign rather than besmirch their family name or force their parents into financial ruin. Thankfully, I went alum before anything happened. Something similiar to that hypothetical situation happened in my chapter and I would hate that my parents were held financially liable because I was in class while somebody else was out drunk driving.

I agree with you to a point, but two points GeekyPenguin:

1) The chapter gave her a bid, and thus she is a sister. Membership selection criteria need to go up if this is the type of person who is coming into a chapter. Not YOU personally, but in general.

2) If this person has been consistently getting trashed, and drunk driving, why isn't someone getting them help, or if the chapter is not wanting to deal with the crap anymore, deactivating her for conduct unbecoming?

I just think we need to be responsible for those we call sister.

The problem is that no member selection process is foolproof. I'm sure we can all point to at least one person who we LOVED during rush - whether it was formal, informal, COB, whatever - who did a 180 once she was initiated. Maybe she went home for the summer a sweet virgin and came back a hobag lush. And at some places, terminating a member can be as damaging to the chapter and the chapter's rep as putting up with her. It's a lose-lose situation.

--end tangent--

And in some cases, termination isn't an instant procedure.

I am just going to end my hijack now before it goes further, this is something I'm pretty passionate about.

Dancindeac, I am really glad that you registered and explained yourself further...I hope things work out for you.

Shadokat and GeekyPenguin, I think you both make excellent points. A collegiate member has an obligation to her school and to the policies of her sorority. A member who consistently makes the chapter look poorly and is behaving in a personally destructive manner does need to be brought up to Standards and dealt with accordingly, possibly leading up to her membership cancellation.

Many chapters employ a local designated driver program on the weekends, where a small group of sisters do not drink with the intent of helping those who have drunk too much.

I do not advocate having these drivers being pulled out of their beds on school nights or away from class. The member who is thoughtless enough to take advantage of her sisters like this is not being considerate of others, and should be brought to Standards.

It is a fact of Greek Life that our NPC GLO's are protected with an insurance policy. Each chapter member pays to maintain this policy, and when sorority policies are violated, the status of the insurance can change, and when this happens, the entire national org can be affected-- higher dues, loss of coverage, etc. And in cases where sorority policy is breached, the accused organization can suffer from a lawsuit, and every member is at risk of being sued, down to their family members. No it's not fair, but there are obese people suing McDonald's for selling them Big Macs. Nobody stuffed those french fries down their throats. The same is true of Greek Life--- if you consent to being hazed, if you drive under the infuence and harm another person, your organization and every member is liable. If your car gets hit by a Dominoes' Delivery Driver, are you going to sue the driver? Sure, but he probably only makes $6/hr. How about his parents? Now we're talking. Are you going to sue Dominoe's and its CEO for allowing its employees to pose a public hazard? Heck yeah! Now the big bucks start rolling in. Why stop there? Who else can we hold responsible? They do say there is strength in numbers. Well, there's money, too, with the more people you can wag your finger at. This is why being a member of an organization is a responsiblity--- and we must follow the policies of our orgs-- they exist for a reason-- to protect us.

I read this post a couple of hours ago and (not attacking S&S here), I think it shows the kind of thinking that has gotten the GLOs in trouble in the first place. None of our GLOs were founded on principles of access to alcohol and sex yet, at some campuses, this is what students see it as now. That idea is perpetuated by tv shows, movies, etc and it has gotten the GLOs into trouble. I understand that this is how many see the Greek System and this troubles me deeply. All of the GLOs are trying very hard to get back to their founding principles for the betterment of the whole Greek System.

Each time that I hear some awful story (like the 18 year old at the U of Michigan who "fell" out of her dorm window after drinking at a fraternity party a couple years ago), the first thought in my head is "I hope that wasn't an Alpha Gam". Am I thinking this because that means the liability insurance will go up and the lawsuits will fly? No. Am I thinking this because I don't want Alpha Gams to get bad press? No. I'm thinking this because I don't ever want to hear about a sister dying an untimely and unnecessary death. Are the rules in place just because of money? No way! I don't ever want to hear about a sister being raped or drugged. I don't ever want to hear about a sister being killed in a drunk driving accident or killing someone else in a drunk driving accident. I don't want my sisters to get Hepatitis C or HIV because of risky behavior. I don't want my sisters to deal with the stress of getting pregnant while in college or dealing with pictures taken of them doing embarassing things which then get posted on the internet. I don't want any of my sisters to go to a job interview in 5 years and be recognized by one of the VPs of the corporation as the girl who slept with all his brothers in college.

What I want for members of Alpha Gamma Delta (and all GLOs for that matter) is to see confident young women with strong self esteem who care enough about themselves and their health to NOT engage in these risky behaviors, most of which could have life long effects.

When I think back to my collegiate years, my fondest sorority times are not when we were dragging some drunk sister out of some guy's bedroom or taking away the car keys or taking a sister to ER because of some trauma that had occurred. This isn't what Greek Life was about. My fondest memories are alcohol free, sex free... the night in December that the two sisters I lived with decided it was time to decorate for Christmas and we created a paper tree on our wall... the support I received when my father had a heart attack... the sisterhood retreat where each Initiation class performed a skit or song about our sisterhood and played Scruples all night long.. those are the things you remember, those are the memories you want to build. Sometimes, the alumnae of your chapters may seem like they are just laying down the law and not letting you have fun, but maybe they have developed some wisdom over the years and don't want you to make the same mistakes they (or their sisters) did.

Lastly, there were a lot of honors organizations, Christian organizations, student government, and other activities that got a lot of members without having to use the promise of alcohol and sex to get them.

Dee

Usually I'm with S&S but I'm going to have to go with DeltAlumn and AGDee on this one.

That said, Shakodat, you said:



OK. No no no no no.

(1) Of course I don't need to describe the rush system in place now to you; you know rush is an absolute whirlwind of parties and best behavior and decisions and effort. Not exactly the best situation in which to get to know the innermost part of each girl.

That said, Gamma Phi Beta and every other panhellenic sorority have been holding women to the highest ideal of womanhood (whose motto is that?) for decades. And Gamma Phi Beta and every other panhellenic sorority have had women in their sisterhood who made bad decisions, who were in bad situations, and who didn't stand for everything the organization stands for. We're all trying to do the best we can, and improve each other however we can.

(2) GeekyPenguin didn't say anything about the chapter's activity in all this. For all we know they had a gigantic intervention with 80 sisters and then took her bodily to a detox center where she escaped three hours later from the confines of her hospital room. Let's not jump all over somebody for admitting our great orgs. sometimes have a bad apple or two.

I totally agree with this. Luckily my campus is not too harsh on rules. My freshman year roomie's sorority regularly had kegs in their bathroom tub. :eek: We dont have live in house moms or anything like that at my school, so things are totally relaxed in the house....though out of respect for sisters we dont have boyfriends sleep over.
I dont know if many 18-22 year olds would want to join a sorority if the whole point was to just go to meetings and do philanthropy...my favorite part is partying with my sisters and enjoying the true craaazy college experience!

I don't know. I was 19 when I joined, and I joined because I was a transfer and I wanted to befriend some girls. I joined with six other women.

* my pledge sister Julie joined because her mom had died 6 months ago and she felt like she needed more female friends

* my pledge sisters Mindy and Deanna joined because they wanted to understand what "sisterhood" really was -- how it was different than their female friendships they already had.

* my pledge sisters Meredith and Kirsten joined because they wanted a group they "clicked" with to hang out with

* my pledge sister Mary joined because she'd always felt at home with women, and sorority life was a natural extension for her.


I don't know that I'd say most 18-21 year old women are only interested in partying and boys.

sorry, but I just have to say: well duh. :p

I think people do join for all different reasons, in different areas, at different schools. I personally joined because my boyfriend graduated and I wanted to make friends of my own. Not to meet boys - I lived in a coed dorm and knew tons of guys. Not to drink - I did plenty of that without being in a sorority. I'm sure I thought mixers would be fun, but considering the sorority I joined had less mixers than most, that certainly wasn't at the top of my list.

However, if I had been told going through rush that I couldn't drink at any parties, that I couldn't go to a random party with my best friends for fear of it looking like an "event", and that I couldn't have a beer or that I couldn't spend the night with my boyfriend in an off-campus house that I (not the sorority) paid rent for, then yeah, I would have reconsidered it. Mainly because I had been doing those things for the past year and found them to be enjoyable. :)

I love my sisters, but I loved my new independence too. Fortunately I joined a group and was at a campus that supported that. If I had been asked to give it up, I'm not sure that I would have. I'm just glad that I went to college when I did.

First off, I'm not saying only GeekyPenguin's chapter made bad membership selection decisions. Yes, it happens often, but only by improving on those criteria can we recruit better women. I also agree that rush is a whirlwind, but that is all the more reason to be careful in membership selection. You can argue all you want, and yes, it's a problem for all sororities, but EVERYONE needs to do this.

Secondly, I didn't blame GeekyPenguin for not helping someone. As a matter of fact, I didn't even see the bit in her post about having a similar situation at her school until about 10 minutes ago. And I'm not saying that the chapter needs to have an 80 person intervention. ALL campuses have counseling centers and such to help students in bad situations, and they can also help members in dealing with this sort of thing.

In rereading my own words, I said that I didn't mean GeekyPenguin personally, but all of us in general, and I also said that WE need to be responsible for those we call our sister. Maybe you missed that.

When I look back on WHY I joined my sorority, I can honestly say I joined to meet new people and have a good time. What I got and continue to get out of it as a volunteer for my international organization is MUCH more.

I commend you Dancindeac for posting your story. I hope your story ends happily for all involved. My comments are in no way directed at you or ANYONE else personally, but are made generally.

Meghan,

Obviously, a lot of thoughts are with you and your chapter in your further meetings.

We wish you all well.

Please keep us informed of your situation.

And although I and several others already have, let me thank you again for having the courage and forthrightness of your posts.

The highest type of womanhood is our motto. :) Zeta Phi Beta also has a very similar one, I believe.

And I didn't really feel like ShadoKat was attacking me - I think that to a certain extent that we should be there for our sister. But after a certain point, which frankly was similiar to the one you described in situation 2, you just want to give up. I can't really discuss this any further without giving away priviledged Gamma Phi business, but at some point -- girls go wrong!

I think we need to back off just a bit and define when liability begins and ends.

I think that if a member of Delta Tau Delta is involved in an accident while home on summer break alone, the fraternity isn't liable.

If he has been to a fraternity event (and remember the ridiculous rule some organizations have that any event with over two (or three, or four) members are in attendance, it's a sponsored event, then there is liability.

Although I suppose that some day someone will claim that Brother A wouldn't have learned to drink if he weren't in that damning fraternity atmosphere.

Anybody disagree with that?

I'm not saying Shakodat is an attacker :) I'm just saying sometimes there's too much pressure put on the organization to "change" the wayward ways of its members.

Girls who want to drink and drive will drink and drive. Membership may give them more consequences for their actions, and offer them more ways to get help when they are ready for it... but in the end, the individual org. is not responsible for this. It's our responsibility to offer the help, to enforce the consequences, to try and promote womanhood... but in the end it's the individual members that much take the ultimate responsibility.

It just gets on me because I've seen it happen, too. Sometimes it's not a Gamma Phi Beta thing or a Phi Mu thing.... it's a Jenna or a Becca thing.