So much to say...
 

Articulate...

The main reason why so many of these "leaders" are getting caught up is because they weren't truly CALLED BY GOD!

My church had a leadership conference this past weekend and it was phenomenal. Tony, I plan on sending you the tape of it--I know you will be fed, as I was. Sorry about the digression. During the minister's presentation, he stated that there are a plethora of churches in this world. Yet, sin is still so great. He later explained that out of all of the churches in the world, 4% have a vision. That means that 4% of these churches actually focus on winning souls to Christ, and doing the work of the Lord. Now let's think about what we see on TV. What do you see on TV when you watch these churches? We see pastors telling their members to, "name it, claim it, You can get that Mercedes, you can pay all your debts off in six months, This is your season..." And it amazes me how the members are jumping for joy from hearing that. Christianity is not about that. Yeah, the Lord wants the best out of us as Christians. But we've put way too much emphasis on making this earth of ours utopian. Now, look at all of these churches--but look at the world. We're suppose to be a light to the world.

And what is this new movement with people putting money on the podium while a preacher is preaching? What's that about?

Telelvision is a medium that we (Christian churches) should be utilizing to reach the "lost". God created everything to glorify His name and television is no exception.

As Tony06 said, you've got to know the Word in order to use it as a standard of measure for ANY ministry, whether on TV, radio, or in person.

I have seen this and I believe it is one of those "sow a seed with your prayer and God will answer it" things. As i said earlier, this goes beyond tithing. I have heard a preacher tell people that "God does not want His children to be poor and if you are its because you do not have enough faith" :eek:

I high-tailed it outta there fast!

The State of the Black Family
 

Some of the panelist included: Cornell West, Susan L. Taylor, Vashti McKenzi (soror), Myrlie Evers-Williams, Alfred Harris (I think), Judge Mathis, and many more.

The major question that Tavis threw out there was what is the state of the black family. Many of the panelist responded by saying that there is a lack of CHRIST in the home, and the lack of FATHERS in the home, and the lack of DISCIPLINE in the home.

Judge Mathis made it pretty clear when he said that men need to MAN UP. He's sick of the brothas not working, hustling, having multiple children by multiple women, etc. It's time for them to become responsible, educated men.

Soror McKenzie said that women need to start babying the men. And that's true. Because there aren't fathers in the home, the mothers have a tendency of babying our sons and they end up expecting that from women.

Some people said that churches need to focus more on politics and economic empowerment. One panelist in particular said that preachers need to stop preaching four Sundays out the month, and start teaching two Sundays, and preach two Sundays. On the Sundays that you teach, teach about political matters and other variety of things. I'm sure you all know that I didn't agree with her.

Those are just a few things that were discussed. Comments please!

It's sad that it's come to this. And that is the reason why there are so many lost people. This ties back into what I said in "The Passion" thread...people need to stop playing Christianity.

Honeykiss, I love the dialogue we're having here. It's so good to have a conversation with someone that thinks the same as me spiritually!

Christian talk
 

Thanks Delph998. I enjoy conversations like these myself. God convicted me of this last year. When the topic was about something like joining a sorority or a TV show, I would reply my butt off :o - but when it came to speaking about Him - SILENCE.
:(

Re: The State of the Black Family
 

I agree with all of the comments made, except using the church to teach political matters. I don't think there is anything wrong with the church sponsoring a "get out an vote" type rally or even holding a "'get to know the candidates" type function either. But

I do have a problem with using the pulpit as a Meet The Press roundtable. This is one of the problems that our church is facing today - using the pulpit for everything else except for its purpose.

You know, I can't remember who said this, but it went something to this effect: If you destroy the family, you will destroy the black man. :(

Del, HK74, I think you both touch on aspects of the same point. IMO, there is always a place for social advocacy in the black church (particularly w/ the history we've had in THESE United States) but its primary focus ought always to be spiritual salvation and teaching folks how to live Godly, liberated and peaceful lives while they're here.

I sometimes wonder, however, do we really know in whom we believe? Our churches are full -- and hyped -- on Sunday mornings but check the House come Bible study. Where are we? How are we learning, and encouraging each other, to stand peacably amid adversity?

As was said at my church yesterday, it's pretty easy to do the Christian-thing Sunday at 11 a.m. But the real test comes in what we do after we say "Amen."

II Timothy 2:15 ;)


p.s. D998...how long I gotta wait for my CD, Ms. Songbird? Don't make me share the "American Idol" demo on GC for all the people :cool: :cool:

This is where church ministries should come into play. At the church I currently attend, there is something going on EVERYDAY, whether it be homeless ministry, choir, support groups, teen church, library, tutoring, etc.

I think this is where the church needs to step in and offer services that transcend their Sunday service. Without said ministries (services) it fosters the mentality that "church is for Sunday only".

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!! I agree with you Honeykiss and Tony!! I believe that we should inform people of things that's going on politically. For example, the presidential election is coming up. I'm sure there will be somebody at the church to talk about it, however, that's not going to be what the pastor preaches about in the pulpit. As Honeykiss said, that's not the point of church.

And to respond to what Tony said about being active in church--you hit it on the nail, Mr. Man! Coming to church is a requirement, as is paying our tithes. It's what we do beyond that- are we giving sacrificially, are coming to Bible Class and/or Sunday School, are active in ministries. People ask my all of the time why I'm so busy, and I love telling them that I'm busy because I have choir rehearsal, or because I have Young Adult Ministry functions, etc. And God blesses us according to how we bless Him.

ARE WE HAVING CHURCH IN HERE OR WHAT?! LOL!

I too am very supportive of the church being more socially and politically active..particularly when it comes to our youth. When I was growing up I was always involved in political and social organizations. Voter Registration/Education is one of my passions. I think the major problems with most chuches(at least in my area) is that the leadership in the church don't know much about what the political and social issues are and if they don't know they will never be able to effectively communicate the issues to the congregation. Fortunately I belong to a church where our pastor is very politically aware and we have a lot of Greek members and community activists who encourage our members and teach our youth the importance of being politically active and hold workshops monthly to increase participation

Re: The State of the Black Family
 

A lot of comments made in the forum really stuck with me and the panelist were entertaining and highly informative

1, Cornell West made the comment that we need to stop teaching our kids to be successful but tell them and advise them to be GREAT! I don't know why I found that statement so profound but when you think about it..success means different things for different people. If a Lexus is successful and you are a drug dealer and drive a Lexus then you are successful but not great.

2. Marva Collins- one of the most intelligent people on the earth stated that at her school her students uses the words "I THINK" and she talked about the importance of engaging children to always THINK. Mentality is the biggest obstacle we face in our current crisis

3. Gwendolyn Goolsby Grant- when she caught the spirit.. I almost caught it with her.. She explained how you need to turn to GOD to get you out of your situation and she reference how as a people that in our darkest days we knew to call on GOD for deliverance.

4. Judge Mathis- You could feel the passion in all his statements. Although I felt that he didn't really agree with Susan Taylor's constant remarks on love..to quote the judge "We love too much"

5. Of course Rev Dyson was on 10

6. Bishop McKenzie was absolutely DYNAMIC.

If can find out when it will air again I will post it..

Thanks for the comments RBL.

Gotta love My GC fam!!!!
 

I was just about to start a thread on the State of the Black family when I came across the new replies to this thread. First I would like to say it's good to be home. I have ben very busy lately with work and church stuff, now is a time of release......


In Sunday School we have been talking about black theology and I have been reading a book by James Cone entitled For My People, Black Theology and the Black Church in which he talks about the history of the development of black theology and its relationship to the black church. Anyway, one of the strongest points he makes is that in order for the church as an institution to reclaim its status as the essence of the black community, it has to speak to the oppression of black people. Many people have replied that the black church has lost its focus by not focusing on saving souls and focusing more on health, wealth, prosperity and faith in faith teachings that popularize televangelism (check BET in the Mornings). My question is, what does it mean existentially or pragmatically when the church "saves a soul"? Does it mean that people openly profess Christ? Does it mean that people learn to Love? Does it mean that people live peaceably among others? Can it mean that people openly advocate for the relief of those who are oppressed politically, economically, and socially, which in turn characterises the "spiritual" oppression of self hate and self-destruction?

One of the basic premises of black theology is that Jesus' Gospel is about liberating the oppressed (cf. Luke 4:18). Black theologians believed that the aim of the black church, especially during the 18th and 19th centuries was to live out the gospel of Jesus as Liberator (look at people like David Walker, Denmark Vessey, Nat Turner, Henry Garnett). The Church was at its most powerful when it galvanized a population of oppressed people and armed them with spiritual weapons to truly fight the spiritual wickedness (Ephesians 6:12) of racism and white supremacy in society.


One of the chief critques that many black theologians had of the black church in the 20th (and I guess even now in the 21st) century was that it was becoming too "other wordly" in its message of salvation and left the oppressed black folk that it built a legacy on trying to liberate out in the cold as the church leaders rushed to make the black church into a black version of a white church (with appeals to morality of whites in the questions about racism and discrimination by using "moralist rhetoric" rather than economic, social, and political critiques that lead to pragmatic analysis and purposeful plans of action change i.e. liberation).


As we talk about the true purpose of the church, I would like to ask this question:
In light of the idea that the church's mission is to go out and "make disciples of men" (Mat. 28:19) what does this look like practically ? Is it people professing Christ? Praising God? Is it just people living by a higher moral code?


With some of the apprehensions expressed in this thread about the church becoming involved with politics, I wonder how then, if you are opposed to the social and political activism of the church, do you propose that the church maintain its relavence with the oppressed black people it comes into contact with everyday, if our main purpose in interacting in their lives is to "get them saved" so that they won't burn in hell when the die? What about the burning hell of oppression, suffering, and self hatred that is brought upon them by injustice in our society? When God tells Moses in Exodus 2 to go to Pharoah to "let my people go", Moses doesn't appeal to the moral conscience of pharaoh and says "You know pharaoh, you shouldn't oppress the Hebrews, it just ain't right" He comes to Pharaoh with the prophetic ( Truth from God) word of "let my people go". Then he went to the Hebrews(the oppressed) not with a plan of religious salvation, but with a revolutionary plan of action to allow their liberation from the oppression of the pharoah (which was political, social, and economic, but it wasn't religious in the since that the Hebews were allowed to worship or fear Jehovah). This in turn allows the hebrews the psychological and social space to come to God. God liberates the Hebrews not because pharoah wouldn't allow for his worship, because pharaoh cannot stop the worship of Jehovah (Do you know how many oppressed "saved" black folk there are?). God sees the injustice of enslaving the Hebrews and calls for their liberation, for this is the essence of slavation-liberation from oppression of all kinds.


This does not mean that the church should just have homeless shelters and drug intervention programs, those things are great and are needed, but this alone isn't the mark of a liberation church. A liberation church, as mentioned by Dr. Jawanza Kunjufu during the State of the black family forum, is a church that fights against not just the symptoms of oppression (drug abuse, homelesness, teen pregnancy, juvenile delinquency and the such) but also fights against the causes of those symptoms (economic inequality, self hatred, and hopelessness that inevitably comes about after experiencing oppression over a prolonged period of time). Conservative black churches see these things as symptoms of humanity's falleness, and should be attacked on an individual basis (akin to blaming the victim). They arrive at this conclusion , according to Cone, out of an inadequate analysis of the social, economic, and political context in which oppressed blacks live. If we only look at individual blacks as the sources of these symptoms, then we have to admit that, on a certain level, blacks are just ill equiped to function in our society (which smacks of internalized white supremacy) if we look at the disproportionate numbers of impoverished, incarcerated, and socially dibilitated blacks. If the church acquiesces to this notion, it becomes another tool in the oppression of blacks (Look at E. Franklin Frazier's Black Bougeousie for a critique of class divsions in the black community).

So, how can the church say that it is in the business of "saving souls" and not be activly advocating for economic, social, and political liberation for black people and the self-determination of black people? How do we deal with the "saved" person who is under economic, social, and political oppression?


Blackwatch!!!!!!

This is the core issue for our church aside from its purpose of "saving souls", which should never be diminished or cast aside as something that is not an important function of the church.

Practically, there is a lot that our church can do, but it will take black churches working together. Churches can band together and build community job training centers (which could train people for better paying jobs) or maybe open a own business within the community and staff it with people living in the surrounding area (i.e. a restaurant, a nice apartment building that would provide good housing for low income people).

Churches could even collaborate with other community organizations and seek out ways to better there surrounding community (i.e. small business administration ).

Practically, there is much we can do.

One thing that we've got to remember is that blacks are not a monolithic group. Many of the core issues that every black person faced years ago (whether rich or poor - from the north or the south) are no longer core issues among us. In years past, blacks united for equal treatment/access because that was something that EVERYONE faced regardless of class or locality. That's not the same today.

This is where my hesitation for the church to become a political platform comes into play. If my church wanted to rally for a particular issue that was in line with God's Word (i.e. abortion) or some other issue that was pertinent to the church (i.e. poverty) then that's great. Or as I stated earlier if the church held a political candidates forum or an economic summit, then that's great.

But when we go into the realm of "Greater New Hope Baptist church supports John Kerry or any other political candidate" then that's where I have a problem.

Welcome back Blackwatch! I enjoyed reading your post.

I do agree that as Christians, we need to educate each other about all of the topics you mentioned. Yet, I believe that the Pastor's ultimate purpose is to save souls by teaching the Bible. Emphasis needs to be placed on living right as a Christian, sin, faith, etc. The components that you mention fit into having different ministries in the church. I don't think the Pastor should have to preach about this because the true message is about Jesus dying for our sins, not economic, political, and social development. Personal opinion. ;)