My understanding is that truth is an absolute defense to both slander and libel. If the defendant showed that the statements were either true or substantially true, she'd win as a matter of law. ("Substantially true" means that the less-than-perfectly-true statements were no more defamatory to the organization than the truth would have been. In other words, if the "gist" or "sting" of the allegedly defamatory statement produces the same effect in the mind of the recipient as the precise truth would have produced, then the statement is "substantially true.")

So a site with genuine secrets is not defamatory. A site with false secrets would be defamatory only if it damaged the reputation of the organization in the minds of reasonable people. Unless the site claims you beat and starve the pledges, it's unlikely to meet the standard.

In any such case, btw, the defendant would almost certainly be able to subpoena GLO records if they constituted the best evidence of the truthfulness or falsity of the statements. If there's a ritual book, the judge and opposing party will see it.

As for intrafamily secret-sharing...when I was touring my father's alma mater, he told me a number of things about his fraternity initiation that made an impression on him. He wanted me to understand his experiences and who he was at that time. His fraternity (Phi Sigma Delta) no longer exists, having merged into ZBT, but I'm sure he would have told me these things even if that weren't true. Also, when I had an awful fight with other members during a secret proceeding when I was an undergrad, I cried on the phone to my mom and told her everything. She helped me through it, and I'm glad I went to her.

Ultimately, it's a personal decision whether your bond with your spouse or child outweighs your vow to the fraternity. As for me, nothing and nobody -- not even the law -- comes ahead of my family.

This is a very interesting related topic, though...I'd love to see another thread devoted to it.

Ivy

My family comes before anything else in my life, but I still fully intend to honor the obligations which I voluntarily took upon myself on the morning I was initiated. Family and GLO are not mutually exclusive.

Short of someone holding a gun to your wife's head and demanding your ritual secrets, I see no reason the two oaths should ever conflict.

So why is this being argued here as some kind of choice? Is your GLO vow now subject to some constantly fluctuating "oath priority list"? If the answer to that question is "yes" then sorry to say, but you aren't worthy of your organization OR your spouse.

As each oath is subsequently taken, it is your responsiblity to evaluate whether the current oath conflicts with any previous ones. If it does, you should not take the current one. If it doesn't conflict and you do take the oath, you honor it without caveat. That's called honor.

wptw

Well, they would conflict (for me) if my hypothetical spouse, who was otherwise wonderful and reasonable and fantastic, just had a real bug about my refusal to tell him this, to the point where it was getting in the way of the relationship.

We all have our pet peeves and things that really bother us...and if this was just driving my husband crazy, I'd tell him. I wouldn't be married to anybody who would publish the info on a web page, but I might well be married to somebody who unreasonably obsessed about something. It's certainly not something I would end, or even destabilize, a marriage over.

For me it's not as simple as, "I gave my word; I keep my word." When I make an ethical choice, I weigh the pros and cons. If I am sworn to secrecy by a friend who then tells me she's going to shoot the president, for example, I'm going to break my promise and tell the police, because he'll be hurt a lot more if I don't tell than she will be hurt if I do. I don't think that would make me an untrustworthy friend. This, on a smaller scale, is the same thing...I would break my word, even if it hurt someone, in order to prevent a greater hurt.

But as I say, it is a personal choice and I respect everyone's personal moral calculation about it.

Ivy

Lucky for me, husband is a man who realizes the significance on an oath and therefore would not pressure me to break it. And if he were in a GLO, I would respect his oath as well. :)

Well, I can say I have not shared any secrets with my husband. He once asked (half-kidding) "So, what goes on at these meetings, anyway?" so I told him (fully kidding) that we circle the fat, have lingerie pillow fights, then go out in the woods and drink goat's blood...

OK, well let's just amend our rituals to add:

"...unless someone I love really has a bug up his ass about it, in which case kindly disregard the previous three paragraphs. So help me god."

If a woman that I’m considering marrying has a bug up her ass because I am choosing to honor a previous obligation which in no way conflicts with her life or our relationship, then that would weigh heavily on my decision whether to marry her. It’s a big red flag that maybe she’s not as wonderful reasonable fantastic as she might seem.

Plus… your wonderful reasonable fantastic hypthetical spouse after 10 years of marriage may find a wonderful reasonable fantastic hypothetical mistress, then hire a wonderful reasonable fantastic hypothetical divorce attorney. Do you think the things that were told in confidence during the marriage will now stay that way? Aren't you glad you broke your sacred oath and obligation for that wonderful guy who cheated on you and then revealed your ritual? Think this example is far-fetched?

Once you start down the road of qualifying and ranking your vows, putting one in front of another, you’re lost. People come in and out of our lives. The one thing that remains is the man or the woman in the mirror. And if you can’t honor a solemn obligation that you took in good faith, then you are not worthy of identifying yourself with all the other people who wear your letters and ARE keeping their word to protect the sanctity of those letters.

wptw

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedRoseSAI


Well, I can say I have not shared any secrets with my husband. He once asked (half-kidding) "So, what goes on at these meetings, anyway?" so I told him (fully kidding) that we circle the fat, have lingerie pillow fights, then go out in the woods and drink goat's blood... [/QUOTE
You told him the truth!??!!!

That took nerve.

Just kidding.

yeah...
 

I think almost every organization "threatens" it's new members with "death" or "Disgrace" or whatever in the ritual.I mean that would only make sense to make people take oaths "Until death do we part" basically.But seriously, I would not actually expect to kill, bury alive,burn alive, or anything like that to any of my sisters should they blab. I mean, I really hope no one does blab our ritual, it would tick me off, but it would not ruin my life. I do have other things to worry about.

As for the whole spouse thing. I recently overheard my b-friend bragging about me to one of his frat bros that I was so cool b/c I've never tried to get secrets out of him or ask him a bunch of questions. And I thought-that was a nice compliment-but GAWD-I could soooo care less about his fraternity stuff. I mean, please.Now my best friend-she's a little loose lip Lucy. But I don't really think she's evil or anything. She just doesn't take it as seriously. It's more like a college thing-not a life long thing to her. Whatever.

Now the Eulessian (Spell?) Mysteries-pretty interesting reading.

As far as our stuff goes-like Tom said, it's mostly oral so there's not much to read.If I see a book going on ebay or something I just let it go.......

damn well put wptw!

Honestly, if telling him was the biggest sacrifice I ever made for my husband, it's no wonder the hypothetical marriage ended.

I would be a lot more upset that I had sacrificed years of my life to this man, and that I had brought children into the world who loved and needed him, that I had foregone the opportunity to find love elsewhere, than that I had told him that the acorn represents the potential growth of the new member, or whatever the secret was. That's nothing compared to the other intimacies spouses share.

I guess I also shouldn't tell my husband my sexual fantasies; after all, if he left me, I might find that information on the internet, along with descriptions of what I look like naked. That's not far-fetched, either. But I don't plan to make choices in my marriage based on which choice would turn out better if we got divorced. Might as well not get married at all.

If you're basing your argument on the fragility of marriage, then do you see a difference with telling a parent or child? I have trusted my life to my mother countless times, long before I ever heard of GLOs. If I can't trust her with the secrets I had to reveal to get help from her when I needed it...well, let's just say I'm not at all ashamed or sorry that I did that.

I repeat, I'm not attacking anyone else's choice; I'm just defending the idea that under some circumstances, the question presents an ethical dilemma without one right answer. Your conscience has to tell you which path is correct. As far as I can tell, you are arguing that there is always one right answer here, because once you make a promise, you keep it until death, no matter what. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Ivy

I think once one makes a promise, one ought to keep it until death. I would never claim that I am so perfect as to always manage to do that myself, of course. But I believe oaths and promises are very, very important. If I knew one of my sisters had revealed our ritual to anyone, and I do mean anyone except someone with a gun to her head, I would want her membership revoked.

If my hypothetical husband can't take one oath I made seriously, I wouldn't trust him to keep oaths himself - such as faithfulness, for example. That's not the sort of husband I want.

Edited to add: There may be times in one's life where one decides to violate a vow. If you promise not to tell your best friend has anorexia ... if you go to initiation and find out part of ritual is killing a puppy... In these cases, breaking an oath is done for moral reasons, not for convenience in explaining why you're upset or to pacify a whiny husband. But there are still consequences; your best friend is upset you betrayed her, or your sorority kicks you out. If you're going to back down on your word, you have to be prepared to accept the consequences, even if they're as mild as people saying you're wrong on a chat board!

Fragility of marriage is one possible pitfall, but it's not the basis for my argument.

The basis of my argument is very simple:
A promise is a promise is a promise.

If you felt joining a GLO and taking that oath of obligation would conflict with your exisiting relationship with your mother, then it was wrong of you to take the oath. If you are unprepared to honor an obligation then don't take it, ESPECIALLY if it's an obligation that requires you to get down on your knees and raise your hand to god in front of your sisters or brothers. If you still feel comfortable wiggling out of that promise, then fine. But don't punish the other hundreds of thousands of people in your group who ARE going to take it to their graves.

And by the way, I can't conceive of a scenario where I would have to tell my mother secret ritual information in order to get help from her.

Someone else summed it up pretty well: "I guess some people just don't take this stuff as seriously as others". Yeah, I guess that's right. And we wonder why our secrets are out there!

wptw

Edited to add that Fuzzie's distinction between violating a vow "for convenience" as opposed to "for moral reasons" is an excellent point that seems particularly relevant here.

You honestly think that no Theta Chi EVER has revieled ANYTHING??? With 150,000 initiates, I'm sure at least one, which is less than 0.000007% person has let something slip, accidently or on purpose.

I think in many situations the husband/wife would not take their curiousity to the extreme. Obviously there will be a level of curiousity, but I have faith that it would not consume my future husband's life. To a certain extent, we all have curiousity about other's "secrets", such is the fascination with gossip columns, exposes, etc. I think a non-GLO husband or wife is probably just wondering if anything really scandalous happened ... like dead puppies, goat blood, etc. and just want reassurance that it didn't. The truth would be probably be less than thrilling for them. I think a simple answer like explaining that the ritual is inspiring and emotional and holds a sacred place in your heart would suffice.

Then again, I may be wrong ...

In all things, I try to be a realist. As such, I realize that over the last 100+ years, there must be someone who has spilled their guts about ASA's secrets. It shouldn't happen, but I'm sure it does. I love ASA, and I would never betray it's secrets, however, I don't think I'd be particularly inclined to bludgeon someone who did. I would just have a better understanding of their moral fiber, and keep that in mind whenever dealing with them. And if my husband ever did ask about our secrets, I'd just tell him that whatever he can imagine they are, is probably more interesting and enticing than the truth would be. I wouldn't divorce him for being nosy. Everyone is nosy to a certain extent.