Well, for listening to you for one! Get over yourself...

Wow.

I think all James was looking for was positive ideas for chapters that do haze, on how to replace those hazing activities. Not a bad thought, in that the best way to get rid of hazing would be to substitute positive activities for the negative ones.

If you're being sarcastic, then that's fine...but I don't think James was being out of line with his question.

I wasn't being saracastic. I think that if I was a guy going through recruitment, after reading the other posts he placed in this thread, that I would NEVER pledge at his fraternity. I don't agree with his theories on hazing and never will for that matter.

Thats y u joined a sorority not a fraternity. Hazing if done properly is a useful molding tool. Im not talking about physically beating a pledge or something, but stuff that has meaning behind it.

the Eta Nu chapter of ADPi is proud to be haze free! :D

Actually, I went to a school with fraternities AND sororities that hazed, the sororities often times worse than the fraternities. It didn't build brother/sisterhood or unity. It made their new member classes wonder why the hell someone would treat them like crap for 8 weeks and then want to be their best friend. It created chapters of cliques by new member classes. And I don't want someone to have to mold me. As our recruitment theme of the last semester was: "The best way to find out who you are is to get to the place where you don't have to be anything else"

We'll never agree, so let's agree to disagree :)

Here's my theory on hazing. Of course, I can only speak for my chapter.

When we invite you to be a Tri Delta, we not only expect you to be a good sister, but a good person. That's what our sorority was founded to do: "THE PURPOSE OF DELTA DELTA DELTA shall be to establish a perpetual bond of friendship among its members, to develop a stronger and more womanly character, to broaden the moral and intellectual life, and to assist its members in every possible way . . .and to encourage them to assume, with integrity and devotion to moral and democratic principles, the highest responsibilities of college women. ." If you need to treat new members like isht to prove that you're superior to them, you're not being a good person. You're going against the ideals that the group was founded to promote.

Also, we need to be able to trust that our new members will conduct themselves with dignity so that they will represent the sorority well at all times. If you have so little self-esteem that you will allow yourself to be treated like isht just to gain entrance to an "elite" group, how do we know that you won't exhibit the same lack of self-respect later and reflect negatively on Tri Deltas as a whole?

You can form "a perpetual bond of friendship" with or without being hazed, but you cannot "develop a stronger and more womanly character" or have "integrity and devotion to moral principles" if you do haze. It's true that I might have a stronger bond with my pledge sisters if I was hazed. But would I respect my older sisters for doing the hazing, Tri Delta as an organization for allowing them to do it, or myself for putting up with it? No. And would my sorority be missing out on some great women because they didn't want to be hazed? Yes. To me, those are the more important things.

That's why the Mu chapter of Delta Delta Delta does not haze.

I am apart of a sorority and have been for the past two years. I was just wondering if making the new members repeat the creed of the sorority word-for-word in order to be initiated be considered hazing?

scpiano: I don't think it is because it is a valid part of the history. If a person is joining a group, they should know by heart the principles it was founded on.

I believe hazing has been defined a few times before, but generally, it involves harassment, humiliating/perilous tasks & practical jokes.

Do you consider reciting your creed to be harassment? Is it humiliating? I wouldn't think so, since everyone-not just pledges-is required to do it, and typically the ideals you are reciting in your creed shouldn't give rise to ridicule or humiliation. On the other hand, if you are required to recite it with a mouth full of marbles, I personally would consider that hazing. I guess if you are a highly sensitive/shy individual who doesn't like to speak in front of people, it could be humiliating, but I bet this would be tested with an objective standard--would a reasonable person think reciting a creed would be humiliation? I think not...but others may beg to differ.

If you have a concern, it would be best to contact your sorority's headquarters, or a national officer. I know that there have been many discussions in our KD yahoogroup about what is and isn't hazing, and we have usually gone to either a N.O. or HQ for an "official" word.

I really doubt that by itself would constitute hazing, many national sororities give new member exams (KD included). Like dzandiloo said, if you make them do it with a mouthful of marbles or scream at them or say it while holding a lit match, yes that would be hazing.

It's all about context sometimes.

Hazing is a good way to weed out good members. Am I less of a member because I have self-dignity and respect? Am I less of a member because the moment I would have been asked to do something humiliating I would have left?

Some alumni actually experienced many of the things that would be defined as hazing in 2003. Does that mean they don't have dignity and self-respect? I don't think so. I have mentioned a friend who got up and left another NPC sorority that she was pledging when they hazed her. I think that she would have been a good sister. The pledges who stayed and experienced hazing also became good sisters. Some hazing was nonsense, some was a pain in the neck, and some was downright dangerous. I am not defending hazing by any means. I agree with shadokat's previous posts on the subject in this thread. I just disagree with describing people who have been hazed as lacking self-respect and dignity.

Well that girl showed no loyalty to her pledge class when she abandoned them. If that girl abandoned her pledge class when times were tough, whos to say she wont abandon her sorority.

To me, the above statement reminds me too much of the DZO train of thought (at least the one that MTV portrayed)... that the girls have to "prove themselves" to the sisters so they can see what kind of sisters they will be.

It's just a bunch of crap really.



I don't see this as having "no loyalty" to the pledge class because she didn't want to be hazed. Her dropping just means she didn't want to be hazed, maybe even not want to be associated with a group that hazes. How does that make her showing "no loyalty to the pledge class"? I don't see how this [not wanting to be hazed and dropping] shows that if she was a sister she would leave the chapter when "times were tough"?

That makes no sense to me at all.

When "times get tough" for a fraternity or sorority chapter, usually that means they are having internal problems, maybe poor leadership, hard time recruiting more people, low chapter morale, etc. Not wanting to be hazed DOES NOT show how a person would react to real incidents when "times get tough".

I was never hazed, but you can bet I am going to be there when my chapter needs help the most, even after I graduate... and I'm pretty sure other people would feel the same.

If this girl didn't want to be hazed and left, it doesn't prove what kind of sister she would have been if she stuck it out.