Originally Posted by Alumiyum (Post 2022546)

My opinions are similar. Being sexually active comes with responsibility, and that includes making difficult choices. I've never had to make the choice to abort a fetus, but I do not take it lightly and though I haven't been in that position I do not think I would be able to do that past 3-4 months (if at all, though I'm "pro-choice").

But all that is assuming the mother is in a position like mine, with a college degree and a certain amount of maturity (and by that I mean that though I do not claim to be fully mature by any means I believe at 24 I am better equipped to handle the possibility of a child than a teenager, for instance). Many women are victims of rape or incest, or are victims of far more desperate circumstances than someone like myself. Though I cannot imagine terminating a pregnancy at 6+ months, I understand why/how these things happen. The topic is far more complicated than black and white IMO.

That being said the things this "doctor" and "clinic" did are sickening beyond belief. I just do not believe the babies that were murdered (because IMO some of these babies were blatantly murdered, from the little I've read...I'm not squeamish but I couldn't make myself read all of the details on this case) were the only victims. I do hope this "doctor" is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.



The bolded is very well said.

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest (Post 2022547)

I hope I'm reading you wrong because I don't see how you can be pro-life and feel that one child should get care over another based on whether they are "wanted" or "unwanted.":confused: And I'm pro-choice.

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest (Post 2022550)

While some are making conscious decisions to have consensual sex, I think the issue of rape (including date rape and spousal rape) and incest are far more common than people discuss, especially among poor women. If we are going to tackle this issue as a society, we can't ignore this topic as we have been doing for centuries.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2022549)

Precisely, I hesitate to get even close to suggesting that a premie shouldn't get that care, because that's not really what I'm saying, but a policy that encourages the births of super-premies is going to be a very expensive one on top of all of the other troublesome aspects of it.

Something else to consider is a chromosomal, genetic, or other abnormality that will result in a child who will die, will suffer greatly, or the parent could not take care of. I feel like a bit of a broken record on this but I maintain that most women who abort at 5+ months never thought that they would or could do so, but have come to that decision after a lot of weighing of options. It's pretty common to 'other' people who make choices out of our experience, and while the women in this situation were 'other' from us, many women who seek out late term abortions are college educated, middle class, and wouldn't be out of place at any social event that any GCer would attend. It's not just about poverty or being a victim, sometimes it's just about making the best decision for themselves, their families (because many also have other children too), and even, they believe, making the best choice for the unborn child.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2022555)

I agree, add in the lack of access to reliable birth control that the woman can control herself and the problem compounds- condoms are all well and good IF he agrees to use them and IF he uses them right and IF he lets you buy them in the first place - pills are more expensive, or require insurance as well as regular doctor's visits, yet more hurdles. IUDs require a doctor's care at least for insertion as well as follow up if something goes wrong and education about maintenance, etc.

Bodily autonomy is something many of us take for granted because we can afford to. Or because we've never had it violated. The idea that someone can as easily seek an abortion at 3 months as at 6 involves a lot of assumptions about education, transportation, income, non-abusive/controlling households, and so on.

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest (Post 2022550)

While some are making conscious decisions to have consensual sex, I think the issue of rape (including date rape and spousal rape) and incest are far more common than people admit, especially among poor women. If we are going to tackle this issue as a society, we can't ignore this topic as we have been doing for centuries.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2022459)

Infants should not be murdered. A fetus is a fetus until birth/delivery. The term murder doesn't apply to abortion although it does apply to what this non-doctor did.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 2022597)

Here's the thing - I did a research paper on this in 2001. The numbers could have changed some by now (I kinda doubt it), but statistically 97% of abortions are performed as post-conception birth control, 2% rape/incest, and 1% heath reason (mother or child) - and I had several sources on those statistics. It wasn't one pro-life periodical that I got that from. At the time I did the research, it was estimated that 1/3 of all pregnancies were ending in abortion. Seemed high to me, but again, several sources.

Originally Posted by honeychile (Post 2022499)

There aren't the proper words for this. I know so many couples who would love to have a baby of any ethnic background, and end up going to another country to get them - and these people were allowing a baby to be born just so they could kill the poor thing? At what point does a person lose enough of his or her conscience to stab a baby to death? Then keep jars of the babies' feet or other parts? If this isn't considered Hitleresque, I don't know what would be.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 2022597)

Here's the thing - I did a research paper on this in 2001. The numbers could have changed some by now (I kinda doubt it), but statistically 97% of abortions are performed as post-conception birth control, 2% rape/incest, and 1% heath reason (mother or child) - and I had several sources on those statistics. It wasn't one pro-life periodical that I got that from. At the time I did the research, it was estimated that 1/3 of all pregnancies were ending in abortion. Seemed high to me, but again, several sources.


I am sympathetic to the rape/incest/medical issues, but the numbers say that it's not what's happening. If it weren't for a fear of innocent (male) victims, I would be willing to say that abortion should be legal only for danger to the mother and legitimate rape/incest cases where charges are filed. Like I said, I know that's not fesable, because it opens up a willing sexual partner to a later rape charge.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not killing babies. And whatever medical term you want to give it at whatever stage of development, it's still human.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2022623)

Even if these numbers could be substantiated (rape and incest are under-reported,) pro-choice advocates would love to see the numbers of abortions go DOWN by having decent sex education and contraceptive services available. This is the never ending argument of "can't condone pre-marital sex" BS. If you want to really make a difference in abortion numbers, you don't do it by making abortion more difficult to obtain (we know how women used to get back alley illegal abortions) you make it less necessary by making contraception more available!

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 2022627)

Yes, I get that there isn't a way to get 100% accurate statistics, but even if it were 70%/29%/1%, I would still call that ridiculous...and that's giving a 27% benefit of the doubt.

I'm absolutely not an abstinence-only advocate...in fact, I love what PhoenixAzul's school did. I don't even care what other people do with their own sex lives - but I do care when they bring someone else into the equation.


Some of you who have been around GC for awhile may recall my circumstances when I was pregnant with my daughter. Jr in college, my husband and I hadn't yet gotten married, I was only working part time, then we moved to NC and both got full time jobs, put on our big-kid pants, and made a life for our family. Yes, my parents helped us out a little, but the point is, we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices. It's not like I can't empathize with where these women are at. I've been there. I remember looking at that test and thinking "Holy crap! WTF do I do now?".

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 2022597)

Here's the thing - I did a research paper on this in 2001. The numbers could have changed some by now (I kinda doubt it), but statistically 97% of abortions are performed as post-conception birth control, 2% rape/incest, and 1% heath reason (mother or child) - and I had several sources on those statistics. It wasn't one pro-life periodical that I got that from. At the time I did the research, it was estimated that 1/3 of all pregnancies were ending in abortion. Seemed high to me, but again, several sources.


I am sympathetic to the rape/incest/medical issues, but the numbers say that it's not what's happening. If it weren't for a fear of innocent (male) victims, I would be willing to say that abortion should be legal only for danger to the mother and legitimate rape/incest cases where charges are filed. Like I said, I know that's not fesable, because it opens up a willing sexual partner to a later rape charge.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not killing babies. And whatever medical term you want to give it at whatever stage of development, it's still human.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2022628)

And that was your choice. It was hard, but you actually had a reasonably good situation. Not everyone is as fortunate as you in that tough situation. When talking about such touchy subjects, it's often hard to put yourself in other people's shoes and think about what their situations may be. Yes, there are people who probably get abortions without even thinking about it, but I doubt those people are very common. It's a big decision and a tough one. Even people who are pro-choice say, "I am pro-choice, but I don't think I could make that choice for myself." That indicates that many people would have to be in a really tough place to make that choice.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2022628)

And that was your choice. It was hard, but you actually had a reasonably good situation. Not everyone is as fortunate as you in that tough situation. When talking about such touchy subjects, it's often hard to put yourself in other people's shoes and think about what their situations may be. Yes, there are people who probably get abortions without even thinking about it, but I doubt those people are very common. It's a big decision and a tough one. Even people who are pro-choice say, "I am pro-choice, but I don't think I could make that choice for myself." That indicates that many people would have to be in a really tough place to make that choice.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 2022627)

...we could have not taken responsibility and took the "easy way out". We decided to own up to our choices.