I just want to clarify what has been written here and on some other threads. The smaller chapters, which are perceived as weak, cannot get new members. Independents who want to pledge, but don't get a bid from a strong aka large chapter would rather remain Independents than pledge a weak aka small org. Some campuses and GLOs have expanded too quickly. Some campuses have waited for all existing GLOs to reach total to add a new org. Unfortunately, people don't want this small GLO because it is perceived as weak. During this time the weakest group drags down the rest of the greek system. If the independents who didn't get a bid and wanted one would all join the same small chapter, it would grow larger aka stronger as would greeklife on that campus.

Am I reading this correctly? Could someone please clarify if I am missing something? Thank you in advance.

naive idealists
 

While we certainly like to hear all points of view, with age one
becomes impatient, and the naive idealists have a place for
sure in the "community of scholars." And we can all point out
various chapters which've pulled themselves up...but to 21? Now come on, any chapter under 40 is a drag on the others, and the risk management fees are killing you a helleva lot more
than a 100 member chapter. These risk management fees
came about 'cause we've misbehaved. Pure and simple. And
we are not, still not, getting the leaders. When was the last time you saw a campus mostly run by Greeks? Way back when
we had good grades and leaders...we did run the place...but we
had 25% or more of the campus in our corner, too. And we did
not have the idiot Greek Advisors..mostly non-Greeks, as a part of the bureaucratic layer in the collegiate administration, either.
We alums allowed that to happen; it is mostly our fault there...
Naw, we got a lot of work to do . The bellyaching and the infighting must stop. If you do not have an alumni board and a
chapter advisor, and if you are not carrying your share...you need to be gone. Again, we are not a rehab center and we do
more, or should, than barf on the SAE lion or pee on the Pike
porch. It may be time for the naive idealists to form their own local..cheap dues and all. I like my new BMW, don't you? The Fraternity is for Life....really....

cream is right
 

You make an excellent point, Deefer, in that on some campuses there have been mergers (or absoptions) which'll
result in the rise of both...and some of the objections disappear as it is a new group This especially happens when the bottom
group is a chapter of a prominent fraternity elsewhere.
And I have seen the whole floor of a dorm go out en masse to
rescue a bottom chapter--sometimes with great results.
These are good ideas, heroic measures, and indeed learning
experiences. But where does it happen, when, and how often?
However, it is not at all naive to look upon this as a solution.
And I have seen campuses where fraternity or sorority members removed their badges, went over to to the weaker house to help rush. Sometimes with good results, but often just avoiding the inevitable, as the weak chapter cannot stand the success, or in sarcastic t erms "despite the heroic efforts
of (insert names), the project failed."
It is healthy to have a site like this, and just because some disagreements occur, the so -called "naive idealists" will not
go away. A little introspection might help.

Re: --another point
 

Q for Frater Conard


What did Wilson Heller say about "outfits" with over 100 inactive chapters?

If there is so much room for expansion then why so many inactive chapters?

Instead of trying to expand maybe you should spend a little more time improving your existing chapters.

good point
 

First, though, there were no fraternities with a hundred dead chapters during Heller's time.
Second, it is a sore spot with me and a lot of TKEs that we
chartered in places, often not joined by others, and should not
have done so in the first place. TKE has pioneered many campuses. The street car schools have turned out to be a far
cry from the ivied walls...and the student body is considerably
different today. Perhaps we should confer degrees at birth.
Third, many alumni, including myself, dropped out of active volunteerism when the headquarters focused on writing memos, giving speeches, and playing big shot. This is, indeed,
a hole we are trying to dig ourselves out of...and it is embarrassing to discuss--but nonetheless, even the largest
outfit can foul their mess kit. But we can own up to it and can do
what we can to improve. And it is working.
I am not happy with that twenty year period either. But I might
point out that this has turned around, and the new chapters are
mostly reactivat ions....and it has not hurt us ...the interest groups and colonies have not abated, either
I am not blind to our weaknesses, either, and I repeat, the
Fraternity is for Life.

There are lots of campuses where chapters aren't at 100. At the campus I was referring to, 40 is a little higher than average. 21 is still small, but remember, this was only one year's improvement. Trying to achieve 100 would be insane. The biggest chapter on campus (at a lot less than 100) got that way by bidding everyone - they are full of average guys and achieve nothing on campus. To my mind, the most successful chapters at my school are those that are in second or third place with numbers, but who win Greek Week, win grades, get the campus leaders, etc.

I don't see why a small chapter "drags the rest down" as long as expansion is still occuring. Can someone explain that to me?

I think that is is the same theory as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The campus is only as strong as its weakest chapter.

Re: cream is right
 

Thank you Mr. Conrad. When I was in college, my chapter was having a hard time recruiting new members as I had recounted in another thread. We had fewer than 50 sisters with a total of 85. Fortunately, a large number of women in one dorm joined. The following semester we initiated a new local sorority of over 20. That was exactly what we needed. It definitely can be done with a lot of hard work.

To play the cynical contrarian here ... I understand that having weak chapters hurts the campus *if* there are potential members on campus who are barred from joining an organization because they can't get into the good ones and new ones can't come on campus. But assuming that everyone who wants to go Greek and is eligible goes, what's the problem with having a "weak link"? (There will always be students who are vehemently anti-Greek, or who are pro-Greek and flunking out of school.)

The way I see it, Greeks LIKE having a weak chapter or two on campus. They can always compare themselves favorably to somebody. They'll never take last in Greek Week, because Tiny Tau can barely field enough men to compete.

And the administration likes Tiny Tau. Tiny doesn't have a house, so they don't throw parties and get in trouble. Tiny never is on social probation. The girls don't think Tiny is full of pigs, because they never think about them at all.

I think if one chapter isn't the weakest link, folks will make one. So every chapter except two are at 100. One is at 99 and Tiny Tau is at 20. Great, Tiny closes, and the school adds Mu Mega Mu. MMM only has 75 pledges, but they get some slack because they're a colony. Everyone starts thinking of Nu 99 as being on the brink - gee, they're smaller, oh no! Or if they're not welcoming to new GLOs, it's MMM that gets slammed. They'll never succeed, blah blah blah.

There will ALWAYS be a weak chapter because we like it that way!

Fuzzie!! You are so right!

There will always be the weakest chapter on campus, as they're the one on which all of the other chapters can base their success. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

I don't naively think we can save every chapter that flounders, but if I can help those who struggle become better, I'm going to do it, and I'm going to advocate for them. Expansion should happen because your system cannot accommodate the amount of PNMs seeking to affiliate. If you have fraternities or sororities with less than total, then expansion isn't necessary. I know on one campus I work with, they had a chapter of a national sorority that was just HIDEOUS. And at formal recruitment, they got like 3 girls when quota was 25. Some girls went through informal recruitment the next semester and said, "you know what? We can just take over XYZ and make it cool!" So they joined that national sorority, and within 2 years they were TOP on campus. Are those stories the norm? No, but can that stuff work? Absolutely!!!

On a completely different note, Erik, consider running for your fraternity's international council if the powers that be aren't doing what you and so many others think is right for the fraternity. You claim to have enough experience, and you can't make the changes you want by not being a part of the fraternity. If your group of unhappy brothers is large enough, your voice will be heard, and I don't think that's naive...

thank you
 

Shado--thank you for your suggestions. Changes have been made within our organization and the ruling council is far more
talented than me. I have had numerous chances to run for our
grand council and have been unwilling to devote the time needed, fully well thinking there were others aptly suited.
My point, aimed at sororities only...why does your outfit continue
to allow chapters of 150 to 250 to exist and barring new ones to
come on? OR why do campi have the stupid quota system which rarely helps the weak and many go thru rush...only to
remain barbarian (non-Greek) 'cause they did not get a bid from
Kappa, Pi Phi, Chi O, Theta or what hav e you?
Chi O had a pledge class of 95 recently at a nearby school The men's groups averaged under 50 in size, pledges and actitves on that same campus Then do the Sig Delts and
Mu Nu's combine so they can have a f unction with the Chi O pledge class. . .(names ficticious) Because of this imbalance,
many systems no longer have exchanges...once a pleasure!
When two THOUSAND girls go thru rush for twelve sororities there are bound to be some hurt, some pissed....but how many?
Sororities have been kept snooty on many campi due to alumni,
and to ignorant Greek advisers. The girls are often sequestered
in dorms, have a meeting room, cannot get into trouble like men
There is a considerable difference in the sexes and the types of
outfits...I will admit it baffles me. A great number of campuses
could accommodate more sororities, and a great number of the colleges deem females too incompetent to run a house. Ponder that while buring bras.
Back to the gist...why are sororities HUGE, getting bigger, and the male counterparts dwindling?

Fine , now what about the 50% of the time when groups are not near total, and there isn't a good Greek Advisor and more groups are still coming to campus?



I think sororities have had things a little easy when it comes to competition. On most campuses women, have a slight majority of the student population. At the same time the majority of GLOs are fraternities. Hyopothetical EXample : 10 sororities and 20 fraternities or 20 sororities and 35 fraternities. When the number of sororities on your campuses double, and your specific sororities suddenly have half as many members, half as much money, and a smaller homes. Will you all still be pro expansion?

madmax--

The sorority expansion process is defined by NPC, therefore, it's done in an organized and well-thought manner. Fraternities could do the same I would assume with the help of IFC or NIC. Sororities remain the way they are in terms of expansion because we examine the system and open up expansion in places where expansion is necessary. I'm not saying that fraternities don't do it properly, but why open a chapter on a campus that really has no need for another fraternity (the 20 sorority/35 fraternity campus for example). Seems to me that's a waste of money!

Erik--

In regards to large chapter sororities, it isn't everywhere. The size of the chapter is based on what the campus Panhellenic chooses for chapter total to be. If a campus says a sorority can have 150 women, then that's what they have to work for. Most national organizations base their standards on what the campus total is. As for the why....well, let's see. Let's take Indiana University for example. When they open up for expansion a few years ago, AOPi was chosen to colonize. AOPi has to put up like $5 million dollars to build a house so they can compete on the campus with the other chapters. Unfortunately, many sororities don't have or aren't willing to shell out $5 million dollars for a house, so they decide to not colonize at a school such as IU. It's a huge money and time investment, and one that some groups aren't willing to take. So, instead of having new sororities come in to make the campus total more reasonable, the Panhellenic raises the total to accommodate all of the women who decide to go through recruitment.

I'm sort of rambling here, and I hope it makes sense. On a side note, on the campus where I went to school, the fraternities and sororities remain fairly equal in size, so mixers and exchanges are still tons of fun :)

New Chapter
 

There are a few girls at my school that want to start a new chapter. They are entirely rude to the rest of greek life. We try to get to know them, but they are just so snobby, and are definitly not going anywhere. Greek Life at my school is dying, the school doesn't want to help us pay for things, and it shows. Now these new girls are coming out of nowhere trying to make their own local sorority. hahah good luck girls!

It is so hard to remember that in the midts of competing with eachother for the same rushees that the Greek Community is a Community and that to survive, we must support eachother :-)

I think Erik has a skewed view of what a lot of sororities are like. My chapter is small, about the size of a small fraternity at 35 girls.
We rely on quota a lot so we can get pledges. Since we are small, a lot of girls don't want to pick us during the rush process. When some of the larger chapters can;t extend bids to all the girls, we are able to give them a bid. If there was no quota, we would probably lose a lot of rushees, and the bigger chapters would jsut get bigger. Quota is a way of keep chapters the same size.
And as far as why sororities are bigger than fraternities: It's the way rush is done. If fraternities herded boys through their houses like sororities do, they'd be able to have 40-70 member pledge classes too. But, since college boys would NEVER go for that, it won't happen. Obviously this doesn't get a WHY sororities are that big or why the two types of groups are so different, but it can help to understand what might have to be jumped over to accomplish any changes. Also, it looks like the imbalance in numbers has got you a bit ruffled.

And it is true that the greek system is only as strong as the weakest link. Gotta support other chapters. That's the message.