Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1866614)

Once again, you all are being hoodwinked and bamboozled by madmax.

If you agree with me then you agree with madmax's central point. Simple and plain.

Originally Posted by kish2 (Post 1866615)

What neighborhood? One example does not defeat my arguement. I can list dozens of neighborhoods that are ghettos. I can even list entire cities. Anyone here from NJ? The entire city of Camden is a ghetto.

Originally Posted by kish2 (Post 1866601)

Sure, that is easy. Lincoln HS in Phila has 14 full time cops and that is not even a big school. Name me one public school in Phila that does not have full time cops. Be specific!

All the integrated neighborhoods in the city have been destroyed.

N. Philly
S. Phila,
SW Phila,
NE Phila

I could pretty much name a dozen neighborhoods in EACH of those areas. Why do you think most people moved out of the city? The city population went from 2.1 mil down to 1.5 while the suburbs went from almost nothing to 3.5 million. The city has 400 murders per year while the burbs with double the population has very few murders. N. Philly is pretty much a warzone. The cops call it the badlands. The state actually leads the nation in black homicides thanks to a couple sq miles in N. Philly and you wonder why we won't let you in the pool.



The ONLY neighborhoods that have not been destroyed are the ones with minimal integration.

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1866588)

There was a successfully integrated housing complex in either Chicago or St. Louis years ago. It worked because residents could not tell (so they claimed) whether their neighbor was middle class or poor.

It proved what many of us already know, which is that poor neighborhoods are run down and criminogenic, not because of the failed efforts of the majority of the residents. Given better living and crime fighting resources, poorer neighborhoods do not differ that much from high income neighborhoods. Law abiding and tax paying citizens generally want the same things regardless of whether they can afford it.

Things like this work in small doses. Despite the shock value of it all, it will most likely be implemented in small doses and to very little fanfair.

This society is class and race segregated by chance (city planning, districting, schooling/zoning, etc.) and by choice. It is impossible to impact the chance without interfering with the choice.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1866616)

People aren't up in arms about his central point, though, and you know it.

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1866619)

You aren't anymore. LOL. But, you either disagreed with the central point before or didn't know what the central point was because you were busy with madmax.

Originally Posted by kish2 (Post 1866618)

What was the neighborhood that was supposidly successful? You said years ago? How about today?

Small doses of success is not success when you average in the large scale failures.

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1866617)

Okay, you named 1 school with 14 full time police officers. You originally said you could name "a dozen with 15 full time police officers". You have 14 more to go.

So, all of the bad neighborhoods and schools in Philadelphia are due to subsidized housing? It doesn't have anything to do with the trends in the '50s when families moved out to the suburbs due to their jobs, more affordable automobiles, and the building of the highway system that made access in and out of large cities possible?

sidenote: "Parking Wars" is one of my favorite shows.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1866609)

Bringing up "black homicide" and "not letting us in the pool" have nothing to do with the negative effects of integration. I agree with you (and him, I guess) that a lot of low-income areas are plagued with crime and less-than-stellar school districts, and forcing integration will do little to change that.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1866596)

His message was well-received until he decided to show his ass (again).

The attempts to discuss the topic at hand were thrown to the wayside after we were reminded that "George Jefferson moved on up" and were told to take care of our children.

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1866625)

Read this again. These two sentences basically cannot coexist together - that's what DrPhil is saying. If the second is true, then madmax's sentence is also true in spirit if not to the letter. Inflammatory =/= wrong.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1866629)

IIRC, those children were bussed to that pool. I don't remember integration having anything to do with that story.

Originally Posted by kish2 (Post 1866624)

Do you really want to play games? Take your pick. The twenty most dangerous schools in the state are all in Philly. They all have cops. http://www.philly.com/dailynews/loca...s_schools.html

Douglas High School
Edison / Fareira High School
Fels High School
Fitzsimmons High School
Frankford High School
Furness High School
Germantown High School
Harding Middle School
Kensington Culinary Arts
Kensington Intern Business,
Fitness and Entrepreneur
Lincoln High School
Northeast High School
Olney High School East
Olney High School West
Overbrook High School
Penn High School
Theodore Roosevelt Middle School
Roxborough High School
South Philadelphia High School
Stetson Middle School
Strawberry Mansion High School
University City High School
Vare Middle School
Vaux Middle School
West Philadelphia High School





Yes most of the bad neighborhoods are a result of subsidized housing.

People leaving does not destroy neighborhoods. It is the hoodrats that move into a neighborhood that destroy the neighborhood. Highways and cheap transportation did not cause people to leave it just made it easier for them to leave. It is the criminal element that causes most of the good people to leave.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1866609)

"The ONLY neighborhoods that have not been destroyed are the ones with minimal integration."

.

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1866631)

I was hoping you'd come back with this . . . remember, you noted how little will change as a result of integration? You can view it either as:

A - A micro-level example of integration at a single point (the pool level; bussing kids to the pool is de facto integration of the pool)
B - An example of things that haven't changed

Either way, it's an incidental but not unimportant vestige of integration - related to DrPhil's other point about knowing who is poor being a detriment to integration. Don't you think others feel like madmax, even if they don't say it loudly or the same way?

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1866634)

Historically, highways and cheap transportation were the reason people left the inner-cities in the post-War boom.