i agree with drphil. drill sargeants and football coaches are only treated differently b/c that is how you look at and respect them right? and if you don't do what they say they can kick you off the team or military. yes they are older but does age really make you that much wiser? if this is the case then why would you ever listen to your boss at work who is younger than you? why would you ever be someone's coffee runner at work unless you wanted to move up the ranks?

i think when it comes down to it, it's all about what the individual is willing to do and we should hold that individual responsible. we are talking about 18+ year olds who are technically adults right? if they want to join an organization no matter what kind it is, they have to accomplish whatever the tasks are that they're assigned. if they don't want to, find another organization to join simple as that. what i don't understand is why the us govt has to hold people's hands all the time and intervene for things that people should have the right to do and not do themselves. this is not like someone is forcing you to do something. you can always walk away if you want.

Your theory is flawed. You listen to your boss because s/he has been given explicit power by the organization. Listening to a mentor would have made for a better argument.

When the government didn't "hold our hands" people got out of control. Again, if college students were more careful and didn't let things go to far, there would be no need for the laws.

That's an interesting distinction. I have to agree with the others in that a football coach and drill sergeant are on a different level than your Pledge Educator.

You are right that adults have the right to make their own decisions and deal with the consequences, good or bad. The problem lies in levels of responsibility. All fraternities/sororities are student organizations. Although they may not all be recognized by their university/school, they are still composed of students. Therefore, it is incumbant upon the host academic institution to ensure their safety and well-being. Moreover, if a student organization does something questionable that results in a death, injury, and/or lawsuit, the local organization, national organization, university/school, and state could all be named in the lawsuit. Clearly they will want to protect there interest/investment in you as a student. Therefore, rules/laws have been established to do so.

mls2008 - What organizational goals are you attempting to reach by yelling at, humiliating, and forcing your pledges into pushups, etc? You have yet to really address the point that I have been making over the past four pages - that different organizations require different management methods to obtain different goals. Football coaches need to make their players run laps because it is a physical task essential to winning games. Pleadge educators should not follow the same management approach because they should be attempting to achieve fraternal goals such as academic excellence, philanthropic good, and betterment of brothers. When an organization's goal is to create and foster "brotherhood", it will not happen if you have a strict heiarchy of supervisor/subordinate but will more likely come about through mutual respect between brothers instead of forcing a pledge to do curls while being yelled at. You asked what the alternatives are to "hazing" in your OP and you have been given many of them yet you choose to argue with human rights and the laws that have been established to protect these basic liberties. Good luck with your chapter while it lasts.

Well actually kansas city i'm an alumni and i'm not really involved with my chapter as much anymore. i just always found these types of discussions very interesting from when i was active so i would just like to hear differing opinions and see if i can find any good enough to make me change my mind regarding certain things about pledging.

to answer some of your questions as best as i can, i believe that humans have untapped potential that can only be reached when you hit a certain threshhold and you're pushed to the limit. we always hear about stories about extraordinary things humans do in times of danger or peril or when they are confronted with obstacles. these things are what i want to base a pledging process on.

yelling: the way i see it yelling is a good way for someone to learn to perform under pressure. it's always easy to do things when in a controlled environment but think about how much better you can be if you learn to get rid of your nerves and perform things when someone is in your face.

humiliation: i think that being humiliated can be an eye opening experience. if you go thru life and you're always worshipped and everyone always says you're right and you always get positive reinforcement, eventually you begin to believe that you're all that. just look at all the athletes and movie stars. b/c we idolize them they all think they're above the law and are special or something. what makes them any better than you or me? that's why i think humiliation can sometimes can be an equalizer b/c it shows that you're not really all you think you are and it can be a humbling experience.

physical exercises: when you mess up and nothing happens, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes? if you're punished or better yet, if someone in your pledge class is punished for your mistake, i think you are more unlikely to make the same mistake twice b/c you know the consequences. if you put your hand over a fire and burn your hand, you won't do that again right? same concept. if you don't like this you can always quit too right?

now obviously all of these things need to be controlled and i realize that with all the deaths etc things have gotten out of hand. however, for govts to completely define every little thing as hazing, i just think that is going a little extreme. obviously we don't want anyone to die and stuff like that. but to call everything hazing is just making things worse b/c now i don't see much challenge in the pledging process.

for those of you who werent hazed and were even showered with gifts the entire time, i'm curious as to if you really improved much as a person. what did you learn in pledging that helped you become a different person after pledging and before pledging? for me, i learned how to push myself to the limit and perform under pressure and learned to be humble. i gained lots of confidence in myself and my grades improved b/c i learned how to manage my time since you always had to be ready for actives calling you up so i learned to do things in advance.

and kansas city, it's not like the hierarchy is always going to be supervisor/subordinate for the whole entire time. it's only at most like 8-10 weeks for the pledges to prove themselves. after that then everyone is on equal footing.

Herein lies the problem. "You can always walk away if you want." That's sad. I have seen some amazing people walk away from great fraternities. Students with 3.8 GPAs, who are president of student government, who are on sports teams, who help with the community... they all walked away because someone decided that making them do pushups, throwing food on them, yelling at them, and degrading them was a good way of measuring their worth as a person. One of my friends who attended another school was very excited about joining a fraternity. He knew I was in a sorority, so he came to me for specific questions. He did his research online. He asked numerous questions of brothers, including, "Do you haze?" and he was lied to when he asked. He pledged for 3 days before he decided it wasn't for him, and he wasn't extremely disappointed. I hear a ridiculous amount of fraternity (and some sorority) members say, "They obviously couldn't handle it." No, they just didn't want to be degraded and humiliated in front of a bunch of people with whom they're trying to become friends.

Untapped potential: I had some before I joined the sorority. And what do you know... it came out when I joined. And I was never yelled at or forced to do pushups. Sometimes, when you present an opportunity to good people who are willing to work hard, they rise above.

Yelling: Why does someone have to learn the Greek alphabet under pressure? I actually learned this right after I received my bid, knowing that I'd probably want to know what the other Greek organization's names are. And I knew I'd probably have to learn it, anyway. Why not choose people who don't need to be yelled at to motivate them?

Humiliation: Your example of movie stars and athletes is ridiculous. I'd think I was "all that" too if I was watched by millions of people, making millions of dollars. Who wouldn't be excited about that?! You're making it sound as if that's what we're getting as new members. I wasn't showered with gifts every time I answered a question correctly. The amazing thing is, when you're in a new member meeting, and you can't answer any of the questions correctly, while your fellow new members are answering all of them, sometimes, that's humiliation enough. Knowing that you're behind the curve can motivate people. And if you're choosing the right new members, then it should.

Physical exercises: You ask, "When you mess up, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes?" If I ask a new member, "Name the 8 founders," and they can only name 6, making them drop to the floor to give me 20 is ridiculous. Why not, oh, I don't know... ask them to study more?! The ultimate goal is initiation. If they mess up enough, they don't get initiated. It's that easy.

The thing that I find funny is that you think becoming a better person all happens during pledging. If that's the case, I feel bad for you. Pledging is maybe 2 months long. If you think those two months completely define you as a fraternity/sorority member, you obviously don't get it.

I equate this whole discussion to shaking a baby to make it conform to your will (stop crying) verses feeding, diapering, cuddling, etc. to ensure the child's safety and comfort. There may be vastly different methods to achieve the end result but only the latter is socially (and legally) acceptable. I too am an alumnae of 15 years and actively involved with my collegiate chapter as an adviser. As an alumn, I would encourage you to do the same and get back in touch with your chapter if the whole yelling and physical demands are still occuring. It is not acceptable (in my opinion) and does not create the type of men that are desirable to work and live with later in life.

i think in both instances whether you haze or do not haze you will get good members and you will get bad members. i just think that something more difficult then learning history or doing philanthropies should be incorporated into a pledging process. i guess it's with the fact that i always saw greeks as being beyond the fact of who you are or who you know or what your gpa is but it could be something where people from various backgrounds can all start with a clean slate and go thru the same process and not have it matter who you were before pledging. picking and choosing members is good and all but i think then you will tend to choose people like yourself. i believe that everyone should be given a fair chance and the only way for that is to have them all go through the same process.

maybe that's what gets at me is the fact that i look at a lot of greek organizations with the same types of people and think, "oh, these guys or girls got in b/c of who they knew or how high their gpa was." giving an equal chance by going thru a physical and psychological pledge process would be fair imo. people will say that's a disadvantage to fat people or whatnot but in those cases you would structure the program to meet their needs. the whole point is pushing people to a higher level that they previously thought was impossible and in that regard, i think physical pledging would be beneficial as a confidence booster.

I totally agree that membership should be based on the merits of the individual and not who they know/who their parents are/how much money they have, etc. ... BUT ... proving someone's worth during pledgeship through physical and mental anguish only encourages an organization to retain the tough members that can take punishment and abuse instead of the members that have the ability to elevate the entire chapter in philanthropic activities/GPA/etc. I've contended all along that it is the military and football teams that need these tough guys while fraternities need brothers who are more than just muscles (sorry to any jocks - I do not intend to offend :)). Fraternities should seek complete individuals (muscles or not) who respect and actively contribute to a lifelong brotherhood.

well my whole point is that physical pledging would be subjective. i would not expect a fat guy to do 50 pushups at once or run 3 miles but at the first event i would probably give him 10 pushups and have him run half a mile and try to build him up eventually to the 50 level goal. thus, even though it's a "punishment" for not knowing information or not completing a task, it can definitely serve as a confidence booster when at the end of the process he sees how far he's come. on the same token, when a football player starts pledging, first event i would tell him to do 50 and work him to 100 by the end of his process. the whole point i'm trying to make is push people to their limits. i'm not sure if you guys can understand what i'm thinking but i think the ideal pledge process would involve both mental and physical tasks so that way you get a vast # of different types of people. and i know what you're thinking kansas city when you say that physical would only let the "strong, fit" pledges survive but that's why i think it's important to incorporate other aspects. having philanthropies, study sessions, w/e is great, but i think it should be supplemented by something more physical. any ideas on a hybrid system to challenge all aspects of a persons being?

I guess what I'm not understanding is why pledging has to be physical? Why can't your chapter push members "to their limits" through commuinity service hours worked or # of A's achieved academically during a week. By establishing physical challenges in a non-physical organization, you immediately set different standards for the individuals whereas if you establish (for example) philanthropic challenges for your membership, you can get all types to push towards a same goal no matter their physical abilities. Also by achieving philanthropic or academic goals you strengthen your brotherhood instead of your brawn.

People achieve extraordinary things in these settings because they HAVE to. These skills aren't necessary in a Greek organization.

Celebrities are put on a pedestal because the general public puts them there. It's not because of a lack of humiliation on their part. A singer doesn't suddenly become a true artist because of a humiliating situation.

Physical excersise is not (and should not) be punishment. There are other ways to "punish" someone for not performing. I do well in class because I want an A, not because I'm scared that the teacher will kick my ass. Teachers are able to "punish" those who aren't performing by withholding a reward (in this case, a higher grade).

I think you're hitting two different issues here. I agree that several things that are classified as hazing shouldn't be. However, as I stated previously,
the government wouldn't have had to get involved and institute these rules if things hadn't gotten out of hand already.

I had to endure some questionable activity when I came into my organization, but honestly, the events just led to interesting stories. I've proven myself by living up to my organization's ideals and working for and on behalf of my organization. Several people that I know who have gone through rough pledge programs have gone ghost, so how do you explain that? Being subjected to hazing is not an automatic ticket to good brotherhood.

Part 2 LOL
 

This doesn't make sense. If both hazing and non-hazing activities have the same results, there's no justification to haze. Also, everyone can go through the same process without it including hazing.

If you structure the program to fit the needs of certain individuals, how is that holding everyone to the same standards? And when did it become a bad thing to be known as the organization that has several members with high GPAs?

How does someone pushing himself to do more pushups prove how he will perform as a brother? It doesn't.

From your definitive stance, I would think your chapter has already implemented a hybrid program. Why would you need ideas? Why not tell us what works instead of giving hypotheticals?

You said whether you haze or not, you'll have good members and bad members. So what's the point in hazing if everything will end up the same anyway?

You said you basically dismiss who people were before they joined your organization. Everyone can start with a "clean slate," as you've so clearly stated a few times. You then say that you look at Greek organizations with similar members and think that they only got in because of who they know. I don't really see the difference between a Greek organization with similar members who were only accepted because of who their friends are, and an organization that plans to strip away any individuality the pledges had before they joined the fraternity. And by hazing, you're eliminating all of the guys who joined for the academic, philanthropic and social advancements, and you're left with the people who have no sense of self worth by subjecting themselves to these ridiculous physical requirements. THAT is a Greek organization that is made up of similar members.

And please read the last sentence of the first post, and the beginning of the second. You said that physical pledging is a confidence booster. You then say that you wouldn't have a larger new member do as much as a new member who is more fit. What a GREAT confidence booster. For a guy who already knows he has physical limits, you're then going to point it out to all of his peers. And PLEASE don't argue that will motivate him to do more and maybe lose weight.

astalumna, how exactly am i pointing out the larger member to his peers? just b/c i give him a lower number doesn't mean anything. it's not like i'm going to tell him "oh you're fat so you only have to do 30". i'm just going to say, "drop and give me 30." and also, you forget on when this is. if it's at the beginning of the night and he's fresh, then i'll have him do more and by the end do less (same goes for everyone else). even a fit person who could do 100 at the beginning will be tired at the end and wont be able to do 30. the whole point is to push yourself and look back on it later and be like,"wow, i accomplished this." and how do i know this? b/c i was the fat guy during pledging. i was pushed to my limit. i've been fat since i was 7. during pledging my confidence soared a ton as the brothers kept on pushing me to my limits. the first day i had trouble doing 20 pushups and by the end i could do about 50 at a time. a few months after pledging i took what i learned and lossed 50 lbs with my newfound "anything is possible" attitude. my grades were better after pledging then beforehand. my time management and work ethic improved too. now i might be one example but i'm sure lots of people can learn something from physical pledging if done properly (as i believe most of my program was b/c it was based on a military format). does it work for everyone? no of course not.

also, i believe i am able to compare hazing vs non hazing also b/c i joined an 2 honor fraternities also. the requirements for one of them was to do 10 hours of philanthropy, have 1 on 1 talks with 10 professors, attend 10 social functions, and maintain a 3.0 gpa. i thought that was a joke compared to my fraternity hazing.

now i've been thinking over all the comments and my own thoughts and here is my conclusion: i believe hazing is good b/c it weeds out people so the remaining members can feel like they accomplished something. now that may or may not be a stupid argument but for me i'm proud of joining my fraternity b/c lots of people who start do not finish and become brothers. to me, that makes me feel good that i accomplished something that others couldn't. it's like getting admitted to harvard, passing the cfa/cpa exam, getting promoted, or something like that. now if hazing were eliminated, i think the only way i would still be "proud" of being in my fraternity is if 30-40% of pledges never become brothers and so we maintain our "high standards." however, the thing i noticed with fraternities is that i would say 90%+ of pledges who begin become brothers and to me that just dilutes the program. maybe that's where i'm going with this....

just a thought