Originally Posted by sasquatch (Post 1578615)

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful towards certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

Originally Posted by Tom Earp (Post 1578892)

While many if not all agree with you on G C, the National HQs will disagree along with the many states who have enacted laws against hazing brought on by some of the things that you mentioned and still go on today.

Starting a local many years ago, we never thought cleaning common areas of the house and line ups were hazing and that is all we did.

Today that has all changed. We did it on and by ourselves.

Originally Posted by sasquatch (Post 1578615)

Well first of all, let's define hazing (for lack of a better word).

I am talking, for example, about having pledges clean up the house early on a Saturday morning in a very short (but not impossible) amount of time. What's the catch? There isn't one. They're not drunk, no one is hitting them, and they don't have to use their toothbrushes. Hell, they don't have HAVE to do it at all, but they understand they will be cut if they don't. Pledging is optional, remember? The thing is, this "hazing" is purposeful and the pledges know that.

No one is in danger and no one is being degraded. If a pledge has a problem with some simple cleaning, then that's not the only problem he has, and he's not someone my chapter wants to be affiliated with. Believe it or not, there will be other times in life when you CHOOSE to do things you don't want to do because you are attracted to the reward. You probably don't want to study for your biology exam, but you want to get into med school, so you study hard and do well. There is no such thing as free lunch, because if there were such a thing, none of us would be in school. The pledge process is not unlike school. You (should have to) work hard to get where you want to be (whether that is being an active member of your GLO or having the job of your dreams).

Now, if you class my example with being beaten half to death with a paddle, then I really do not know what to tell you. If your friends feel resentful toward certain actives, they probably did a lot more than made the pledges clean and I'm just as much against that as the rest of you guys are.

Originally Posted by sasquatch (Post 1578594)

And you know this first hand?

Because I sure do have tons of evidence that proves otherwise.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS (Post 1579349)

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS (Post 1579349)

Hazing actually does unify a lot of chapters because the actives have to spend a substantial amount of time with the new members for most of the activities. It also makes many new members anxious to be able to mingle with the actives after they complete their rites of passage.

This isn't an either/or discussion. Despite the legal definition of hazing that tries to cover it all, we all know that there are a range of new member activities and processes that fall under hazing. And not everyone who opposes hazing will oppose every activity that falls under "hazing." Some are laughable.

Hazing divides some chapters and hazing divides some new member classes. Hazing unites many chapters and hazing unites many member classes. This will be based on the people and activities involved, as well as how both sides behave and feel about the other side and the "hazing" activities.

The evidence of this would be a matter of witnessing various chapters' activities and experiences. There will always be variance because there are thousands upon thousands of fraternity and sorority chapters in the world.

Originally Posted by macallan25 (Post 1579413)

This should be the first post in every singe thread here on out created bout hazing.

Then said threads should be closed.

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 1217357)

Do you think that hazing is becoming frowned upon more because it's culturally obsolute or because it's too expensive in terms of insurance, lawsuits, etc. for our respective organizations to allow it to continue?

It doesn't seem like many organizations placed a very high priority on hazing when it was at its zenith 20+ years ago. I don't mean to be cynical, but could it be that the only reason we're even talking about this has nothing to do with the human tragedy, the danger, etc. and everything to do with the financial survival or our respective institutions?

Originally Posted by Texan85 (Post 1608370)

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

Originally Posted by Texan85 (Post 1608370)

Second to that I have been told hazing comes from post WWII and the marines and soldiers coming back on the GI Bill, so I think its starting to take root in the new milenium that it is just an archaic practice.

Originally Posted by delicateshades (Post 1774204)

hazing works. it is not fun for the pledges at all, and while they're in "i-week", "hell week", or whatever period in which hazing occurs, they do not realize how well hazing actually does work. when you make a pledge go through hell, whatever ''hell'' may be, all the pledge has is his pledge bro's. hazing is not designed to be mean to new members for fun, it is designed to unite pledge bro's. it is designed for them to realize that no matter how $hitty a situation can get, they will always have each other. hazing works.

granted, i have heard methods of strongly uniting men together in brotherly bonds through non-hazing activities. however, i strongly believe that men unite stronger in worse situations.

Originally Posted by delicateshades (Post 1774204)

hazing works. it is not fun for the pledges at all, and while they're in "i-week", "hell week", or whatever period in which hazing occurs, they do not realize how well hazing actually does work. when you make a pledge go through hell, whatever ''hell'' may be, all the pledge has is his pledge bro's. hazing is not designed to be mean to new members for fun, it is designed to unite pledge bro's. it is designed for them to realize that no matter how $hitty a situation can get, they will always have each other. hazing works.

granted, i have heard methods of strongly uniting men together in brotherly bonds through non-hazing activities. however, i strongly believe that men unite stronger in worse situations.