Oh, that's an excellent question. I think they will have some complaints (and perhaps more) on their hands if they rush as XYZ knowing that they are working toward disaffiliating and going local.

I see depledging and even some bruised eyes resulting from not being forthcoming with this info.

Am I the only one who is a little "nervous" over this discussion and its implications? ;)

The University of the South.

Penn State University.

And they didn't break away so they could haze, they broke away because they disagreed w/ their nationals' alcohol free policies. Remember that whole deal about how all fraternities were going to be dry by 2000? Not so much.

EW is saying that he feels that 1) his HQ isn't letting his chapter pick members in the way that they want 2) the program they have in place to educate those members is unsound and weakens the chapter. That's not about alcohol or hazing. I would feel the same way if (example) ASA passed a policy that said we were going to concentrate on grades and had to take any rushee that had a 3.75 or above.

From all his posts, the guys that join his chapter are going to care less about the national networking, the national advantages etc. They are joining the EW's School Beta Betas, not the Beta Betas of EW's School.

Hmmm ... just wondering - who owns the house? I'm very familiar with what happens to breakaway church buildings in the ECUSA - and I'd be very surprised if there weren't clauses in most House Corporation documents dealing with what happens to the house if the national group disbands/leaves campus.

I would, as would most people I know of and knew of during rush, would want to know all about the chapters I was looking at joining as a Brotherhood.

As for insulting most GLO members, I fear you have done that all on your own. I was, as it would seen others here understand, referring to your house as I posted in prior comments. As well as your own postings all through-out RM thread. You seem to have issues with many rules, regulations, laws and policies. And I just do not understand from where you are getting your information from, as an undergrad, to form some of your POV's.

Oh, I understand, and I was a part of the complete trainwreck of a thread about this subject 2 years ago.

But, there are some guys who want to join the national Alpha Betas, not Alpha Beta offshoot. They are the ones I am asking about.

Thank you all for understanding.

Then I wonder whether the newer members would have some say in the whole matter.

Hey EW;
I meant to ask you in one of my prior posting something:
While you indicated that you are at Arkansas (and have started a thread elsewhere about elections on a campus), you missed stating what chapter you are such an active and concerned member of.

:eek:

Hey,count me in, too! :)

I think that everyone understands the concept in theory.

We just don't understand why that is really a viable alternative for those members who truly value the rich histories, traditions, and practices that exist because of our (inter)national affiliations. And, of course, we're attempting to see this from the standpoint of the types of organizations where this sort of thing is more likely to apply.

Plus, the position was that this would be an increased occurrence (for IFC fraternities, I guess) and that's where the "discussion" really comes in.

Cannot agree with you more.

Todays kids that go to college are pretty smart and I think they would tend to go with tradition fof a National Fraternity for the future and what it could mean for them.

In pledgeing an off shoot or rouge GLO, what does one have? Just that small group, not the net work of a National and all of the GLOs who are out there in the real after graduation world.

National HQs do not make the regulations and rules, the membership does.

If a certain chapter does not want to abide by them, then try to change them. The Nationals run the daily business within the rules laid out to them.

If those rules are broken, they do make the decision to suspend or put on probation.

Wanting to keep with tradition is exactly the reason some chapters break off. With these new programs that many fraternities are instituting in chapters......tradition and history is thrown out the window. Many of us have grown up around fraternities and certain chapters all of our lives. We know how they have operated, and it is disturbing when the MO is changed into something lesser than what we expect.

I see what you mean on the surface level.

But beyond the surface, this reeks more of a sense of entitlement than a yearning to maintain tradition. Are these fraternities' national entities really doing away with the tride and true traditions that many people "grew up around" and have "known about/expected" all of their lives? That phenomenon might be its own thread.

So, these sense of entitlement and tradition should check mate what importance means/

No, I am not arguing with you on that point, but what mccallan said.

That was one of the most ignorant posts that I have seen when one is bigger than the whole.

So this one chapter tells the whole screw you we are going on our own and be better?

Sorry, how many ways can one spell stupid or ignorant?

Dayum. That's pathetic. If you ask me, that chapter would have done the world a favor by taking the kid out of the gene pool.
________
Prilosec Attorney

This thread is starting to remind me of "you can be against the war and still support the troops" or the opposite of that, and all the permutations thereof.

Hey Tom, my post was not stupid or ignorant. Don't ever talk to me about that you rambling, drunk bafoon.

I didn't say a single thing that you typed or asked. I never said a single chapter is bigger than the whole. I never said we should say "screw you" to the nationals.

Damn you're an idiot.

When you are told who you are supposed to rush, how long your pledge period has to be, what you can do, what you can't do, etc. etc. etc.............then yes, I feel that many of the traditions are being done away with.

Why can't I have a sense of self-entitlement in this situation? Is it bad? Many of these programs that nationals try to institute in chapters turns them all into watered down versions of their former self, imo.

So there was a time when such regulations didn't exist at all? I'm curious.

I'm really talking about your belief that there are people who had a knowledge of "how they operated" of these organizations and chapters prior to coming to college. How a nonmember (and even a noncollege student) knows about "how they operated" is something that members need to correct.

There's a difference between saying "these changes are at a detriment to the organization as a whole and we are petitioning for change" and saying "this isn't what my chapter brothers and I (who are a small % of the organization) thought we were signing up for when our fathers told us about this fraternity...so we're disaffiliating." :) What happens after you graduate?

It reminds me more of the NPHC threads that debate paper vs. pledging since the NPHC groups did away with pledging. Some of the inter/national fraternities have not eliminated pledging completely, but have put a lot of restrictions on it that some chapters don't like.

I do find it interesting that these young men are seeing programs like the Balanced Man and Men of Principle type programs as a detriment. It seems to me that the goals of these programs are to help young men become gentlemen, obeying the law, readying themselves for gainful employment in leadership positions and holding high ideals. Is it simply that there is disagreement on how best to attain these goals?

I can't speak for macallan, but I think by saying we know "how they operated", we're more discussing the conservatism of the chapter, pledgeship (because often we know from famiily or friends what it's suppose to be like, i.e. not 8 weeks long), and this sort of thing. Not the specific operations, but I'm clearly seeking a chapter operation that is conservative, like my upbringing.

Does no one see this as I do? I think it is a simple case of national working to improve their organizations, align them with the 21st century, evolve into a better fraternal brotherhood. And, the chapters are rebelling because they don't like being told they have to change or modify what they have been doing for the past gazillion years. That's it. Plain and simple.

It already happened to the NPC groups and we all survived, heck, we're thriving.

At its core, the 'Balanced Man Program' is little more than a collegiate versions for the Boy Scouts. I could write a paper on the abomination that is the BMP but haven't really got the time. I'll point out a few....issues, that I have with the program.

"In 1989, SigEp instated the "Balanced Man Program" the BMP, as it is commonly known, is a program which focusses on the development of the individual, rather than the whole group"

This is the exact OPPOSITE of why I joined a fraternity. The BMP shifts the focus away from brotherhood towards the individual and personal gain. In the BMP you go through different 'levels' of brotherhood. A fraternity isn't a video game. Bonds of brotherhood take time, you don't just 'level up'. Each level has different requirements for personal goals (academics, community service, on-campus organizations, etc.) While nice and dandy, these can be accomplished alone and do nothing to promote brotherhood.

"Chapters are accepted into the Balanced Man Program only after an overwhelming majority of the chapter votes to convert from pledging model to Balance Man Project Chapter."

This a complete lie and the opposite of what happens. In almost every case nationals takes a struggling chapter and rather than offer to help, will force them to switch to a a BM program at the threat of removing their charter. Also, nationals won't colonize a new chapter unless they are BMP. The result is that the majority of BMP chapters are houses that are either brand new or are rebuilding from scratch. Of course the first thing nationals tells these chapters to do is get their numbers up. As all of you know its pretty hard to recruit when you already have a bad reputation on campus or none at all, so a lot of these chapters are extremely generous in their giving of bids (leading to nicknames of Sigma Phi Everyone at a lot of campuses). That open door policy along with the elimination of pledgeship means that people are signing their name, getting their letters, and learning aspects of the ritual right of the back. All of these factors lead to a lack of respect for BMP chapters at many campuses.

I could go on but time does not permit.

Completely correct. Part of the reason you find very, very few good Sig Ep chapters in the South. Texas is mid-tier, Ole Miss is mid-tier, and SoCar is as well. Those are the best chapters (that I can think of) of Sig Ep in the South. They're not even tops on campus.

BMP completely ruined the chapter here. It's about to fall off soon.

Okay, I have heard bowsandtoes explain the issues with one fraternity - and it was a fairly good explanation of why members are struggling with the changes. But what of the others that are all going to he#@ in a handbasket as you say?

I think that he means that some of the others are adapting similar programs. I have some of the issues with our own Advantage program - which is a lot about completing goals on your own - which we went to after our previous pledge program, which was group group group 24/7. A good pledge program should be a mix of individual challenges and group challenges - not just one or the other.

@DSTChaos - yes, there used to not be such a thing as standardized pledge programs. As long as you passed the membership exam, you were good to go. The only pledging material we had from our national office when I pledged (mid 80s) was our Encounter book, which told our history, had a list of our chapters, a list of the other NPC groups w/ their colors/mascots/etc, a list of NIC groups, and a basic summary of what sorority life was like. It was around 40 pages long. The Advantage materials now are prob a 200 page book with activities, a member educator's guide....I could go on but you get the idea.

I agree, BMP is ridiculous.

I'm glad that Sig Ep is the exception, not the rule. I think there's ample middle ground between traditional pledging and BMP. I think the more successful national organizations are going to create programming which aims at that area.

I always thought that IFC and/or school had a greater say in rush matters?!?!?!? Learn something new every day here.

Was this a free-for-all or were there just different (and seemingly more lenient) regulations and restrictions, though?

While several of you are bashing Sigma Phi Epsilon about their Balanced Man Program, they must be doing something right. They have the largest undergraduate membership, have more chapters at the U.S. News top universities, are adding chapters at an impressive rate and probably have closed fewer chapters recently. If their program is that unpopular why are they so successful? What they are doing may not be what you are seeking from a fraternity, but obviously it is attractive to a lot of young men. You may be fooling yourselves. While you are judging groups by what you think is hot today, you may very well be working for the men who went through a balanced man program tomorrow. I am not a Sig Ep but I am certainly impressed by their success.

I think that we had to send a copy of our pledge program to HQ, but other than that...it was definitely more lenient.

Of course I'm only speaking for my group....other NPCs might have done something more uniform.

If numbers equated success, then yes we'd be flying high. But the truth is they often don't, especially when many of these chapters are bidding anyone who walks through the door.

Eh, I mean Oklahoma SigEp rushes like 75-80 guys a year. Their numbers are huge. They are second tier their. Not nearly as good as FIJI, SAE, etc. and they don't have near the numbers ever year that Sep takes in.

We're not middle tier here. ATO/KappaSig size chapters are considered middle tier and we're not nearly on that level. If we're 'middle tier' then so is KA.

I wasn't really talking about rituals and such in reference to knowing how our chapters operated.

Take for instance SAE down here at Texas. My dad went through at our chapter. So did tons of his friends. A bunch of my older friends went through here as well. I grew up around the house and got to hear them talk about it all the time. I went in to pledgeship knowing quite a bit about what to expect. How long the pledge program was going to be.......things of that nature.

I think you know my stance, as well as others on how the chapter relates to the whole so I wont' go there.

As far as what happens after I graduate......what do you mean?

Gotcha.

Wasn't too sure how Ole Miss was set up. Knew Phi Delt/Sigma Nu was up there. Even so, upper-middle to middle at Ole Miss could compete as top, anywhere in the country.

Quantity does NOT equal quality. One of the worst problems is they're "adding chapters at an impressie rate." Not good. I'm sure they'll be opening them at Community Colleges soon. Throw in BMP with "adding chapters at an impressive rate" and you have at least in the South, a poor image. A "Sigma Phi Everyone" image. There are chapters, like bows, which are exceptions of course.

Gotcha. Thanks. :)

You weren't supporting a chapter disaffiliating but those who choose to go local, do they concede their ability to remain active with SAE when they graduate?

The way people see their organizations as a crazy co-ed is often different than they will when they get older and more mature. Assuming that some of these people don't see their fraternity as something they did for college and that's it. :)