OU this year was fun. I had second row seats! You've gone for 15 years? Crazy. I've gone for the last 3.

You and I have discussed this before. I'll refrain from commenting on it further here... although I sort of want to. LOL.

One thing about W&L is that because so many people are Greek there are all different kinds of chapters, with all different kinds of people. A good portion of them are traditionally southern (probably the majority), with various levels of "tierness" and various types of "southerness." I think I've commented about that elsewhere. But because like 85% of students are Greek there are also chapters that draw all kinds of other students. Yet everyone hangs together to a large degree. Which is actually one of the things I like about W&L (there are a lot of things about the school that make me roll my eyes in retrospect). Maybe that's "the thing you can't put your finger on."

Baton Rouge is a drinking town, with a football problem.

Interesting. Thanks for your candid response. I actually think your list of "the good" is somewhat inaccurate. Except, not the second one. A good majority (60-70%?) are indeed from money or a decent family (using the sense of the terms that I know you mean. But there are a LOT who are not. At the same time, as you mention most of those who are not conform to the model of those who are.

As for the conservative thing, I think you underestimate the number of liberals at W&L. There are a significant number. Also, a lot of the supposed conservative students are really moderates who just lean a bit conservative. But, again, most of them dress & look like conservatives.

As for the Real World, rap music, and pot-smoking.... LOL. It definitely depends on where you hang out. I don't remember anyone watching the Real World! Rap music is a weird thing definitely, because even the guys in the very "top" groups or whatever definitely listened to rap music. Not sure why that was. Everyone at W&L just seemed to like rap music. I like it too. Everyone seemed to like jam music too (which I can't stand and think is just.... ugh, trashy and awful). Pot-smoking... there were definitely fraternities that had strong reputations for that. It was pretty common I guess, but not as common as rap music. It's another thing I can't stand and think is just 100% trashy (no matter what class you are).

The other big thing about W&L was open parties, so all members of all groups could show up at every other house's parties. Or non-Greeks, for that matter. Which on one level is nice and on the other level created a LOT of security problems.

[quote=shinerbock;1620258]Auburn. But in an effort to show that I view this somewhat objectively, note that I admit Alabama is a better greek school. Also, I do have pretty strong connections to most of the SEC schools I've mentioned.

I agree with you though about my criteria not holding up in the long term, and I think that is unfortunate.[/quote]


yea i got a friend who is an SAE and a FIJI at Auburn, as i hear it is similar to my school. Bama is just on a different level and i would agree that it is a tier above, its good to hear atleast someone else can admit that about their school, because i have a hard time even though i know its true in some aspects lol.


And yea i feel you, it is unfortunate. My family doesn't come from wealth or anything, but the general attitude or culture that comes with the type of guys in a fraternity has grown on me since getting here and since befriending the people i did later in high school. But i can't complain because its bringing a lot of opportunity to my home state, atlanta being the fastest growing city in the country right now.

With an internationalizing country though and the fact that we are going to no longer be the world power we once were soon, it won't ever be like that again. Its not white suburbia now in control, its one big melting pot. Which i dont necessarily have a problem with i'm not racist, its just different.

In other words, areas like Bama and Ole Miss won't have the same image 15 years down the road if they want to retain the same power they do now in a social aspect.

Change in times calls for change in action, you can't stop it.

What is it with Tyler? Tyler does not strike me as the sort of place that is the breeding ground for good fraternity men. There are some really nice parts (like most towns), but it's really a redneck capital.

And what's wrong with North Dallas? Have you ever seen Preston Hollow? Or west Plano? I know the folks haven't been rich since before the War like a lot of fraternity men, but there are a lot of quality people in Dallas and its northern suburbs.

Tyler is pretty much where 'the South' ends (I'd say 'the West' begins in Ft Worth, Dallas is just in limbo). As such, it's one of the few places in Texas that holds onto any kind of Southern charm. Dallas and Houston also have their share of ghettos but that doesn't mean that other parts of the town aren't nice.

And west Plano (Plano in general really) is the definition of new money. And most people don't have a really feel from the boundaries of Preston Hollow. What most people consider authentic Preston Hollow is Royal lane to the North, NW Hwy to the South, Hillcrest to the East, and Midway to the West. Suburbs like Plano, Frisco, and Allen are nice for stocking the middle tiers at schools like OU, Tech, and Arkansas.

I use to live in Dallas. There are quality people in Dallas of course. Some of the top recruits in Arkansas rush come from there. However, the majority of the Plano kids go into the third tier here. There are lots of exceptions, but it seems to be the rule.

Often times, I'd rather rush a guy who was middle-class instead of someone from new money as such in Plano and so forth. I have alot of great friends in Plano and it's a mostly fine town.

I would assume that in Texas all of the top tier guys would be from oil money. I plan to make a trip out there and visit our chapter there, I've heard that they are one of the top chapters of any fraternity in the nation.

Seriously?

Agreed that most, if not all, of the areas surrounding Tyler are rather redneck. But most of south Tyler has the qualities of what those on this thread seem to hold so dear. Talk about "Old Money..." um, oil anyone?

Also, does the term "Rose Festival" mean anything to you? Talk about an old Southern Tradition that is just reeks of Old Money. Everyone knows the title of Rose Queen is bought and not won. And the Queen's coronation dress costs more than most people spend on new cars.

ETA: Rose Festival Website for those who are curious: http://www.texasrosefestival.com/

There's still some but a lot of Dallas really benefited from the technology boom, going all the way back to the 50's and 60's when TI was founded here.

I have lived in Tyler since I was around 3. That isn't even close to true. Surrounding areas being redneck? Yeah, very much so. Tyler? No. Unless you really know Tyler, it's hard to get a sense of what it is really like. Very Southern, very conservative, very wealthy, old money type city. The history behind it, especially the social scene and the things that have gone on there are mind blowing.......stuff you make movies about.

Eh, not so much. Real estate, investments, banking, finances, oil, etc. etc.........pretty good mix.

...and yes, FIJI down here is a very solid house. Excellent guys.

Are you from Tyler? Definitely haven't seen the Rose Fest spoken of on here before.

I was an escort in 2004. You do it your sophomore year of college. Absolute blast.

As far as the queen......that wasn't always true. For a long time she was always chosen from families who have had long histories in Tyler. Not so much anymore. It really is getting to be about who can afford it.......and the prices are astronomical for the girls. Us guys need a few suits and a tux.....no big deal. I believe the queen's total our year was upwards of 400,000-500,000$ including ball gowns, dresses, the queen's dress, parties, etc. etc.

Have to get back on track a bit... I think the whole point about going into Texan cities and so forth is that there are still some holdout cities which are great places for fraternity men because of the size of Texas. I forgot to mention places like Midland, which is/was loaded with oil money. In the book Friday Night Lights they say it had more square feet of office space than New York at one time. In Georgia it's getting sparser with the growth of Atlanta. Florida gets a bit screwed. There's a couple of great places but it seems like the panhandle guys go elsewhere and the giant South Florida isn't always the most exceptional place.

It doesn't really matter anymore though because so many kids are coming from out of state now. #5 public school in the country has a pull of its own when recrutiing people, not to mention the stafford effect and the football team's new promise it holds.

You're undoubtedly right, but I don't think guys like Stafford (football ability aside) are the kind many traditional fraternities are looking for.

Unfortunately, improvement of a school's national reputation and growth doesn't always (perhaps often) coincide with sustainment of a great greek system.

very true.

i think throughout this whole conversation we have forgotten that it isn't necessarily going to result in quality or quantity. It almost seems to me that this whole conversation in a way has made the point that the more intelligent people are the less likely they are "cool" are a "fraternity man".

i dunno bout the rest of yall but i would like to be considered intelligent lol. i think we forget the difference between a nerd and a intelligent, worldly man.

Well, yeah the GPAs of most Greeks on campuses everywhere is higher than the general student body, so we are smart! It sucks that the "Animal House" stereotypes of Greek Life turn off some smart, talented men and women who would make excellent members of our organizations.:(

I would love if someone can chime in and answer some questions for me. I have been out of the actual Greek Life loop for some time when it comes to recruitment. I am also not afraid to admit I know very little when it comes to recruitment regarding fraternities vs. sororities. After reading this thread, I would love to ask some questions, since I am in the SEC area and I have two sons that may very well be a part of Greek Life.

How much value is put on the city in which you reside for recruitment to a fraternity?
It seems to be spoken about quite alot in conjunction with monetary status. Is family income very important as well?
Does an upstanding young man coming into the system from a decent area with a fair amount of community service and such, solid grades, and recs stand a chance to pledge a solid fraternity? What is some advice you can give to a young man to make him more appealing compared to the next candidate? Is there anything that would make him stand out?

I really appreciate some advice/ideas/thoughts on this. Thank you for your time and input.

It's good to ask these questions...here's my opinion (and people will contradict me, I'm sure..I'd like everyone to answer this.)

First, I go to the University of Arkansas so these answers apply to the SEC, but more specifically the general idea of the tiers (lower 2nd, in my opinion). Places like Miss St., Florida, FSU, etc.

1. Value of the City: I think the value of the city is sort of differently spoken about on the board then what it's worth. Yes, there are great cities who breed Fraternity men, but it's all about the connections your son has before hand. He could live in the middle of nowhere, where no ones heard his name before, but if he has a friend or two from the fraternity he may be better off than when people do know his name. Often the town is important because people from the same town want other people from that town. If it's a particularly wealthy town, he may be better off. My own town, nearly 1/5th of my graduating (Public school) class went Greek. Talk about connections, the grade under us could go to any University and be in any fraternity/sorority they wanted.
2.Family Income: Not nearly as important. It's a nice extra thing to have, but someone from a middle class background with the right friends/connections could have no problem getting into a very good fraternity.
3. Recs/Grades/Etc - I hate to say this, but at least in my fraternity we don't look to hard at Grades or Community Service. I do remember specifically pledging a guy because he was an Eagle Scout, but other than that, pretty sparse. We get Recs every year, but Recs aren't very important. In my school and others like it, few Recs are turned in (to my knowledge at least)
4. I guess if I would have to give advice it'd be:
Make as many friends/connections as you can before Rush. Don't act like a fool when school starts (but don't before hand either...we had a rushee get drunk and break a bottle at another house...we heard about it, he was cut everywhere to my knowledge). Go to as many Rush parties throughout the summer as you get invited to. Don't get too drunk at them. Make sure you're making the right friends at the Rush parties instead of bugging girls or being too drunk. Bring a girl along if it's appropriate. Be genuine. Don't curse if you can help it. Don't brag or be boastful. Honestly just general ettiquette that every person should know. That alone will put him far ahead of alot of people.

Thank you for the quick response. It is appreciated SECdomination.^^

As of right now, I guess they have one mark against them. We are in South Florida- yikes! (not in Miami, but a bit further north)

I feel our family will relocate before they enter the university system, so I probably don't need to worry about that. I have lived here my entire life and I am finding it is time for us to move for various reasons. My husband has an early retirement shortly and I feel that is when we will make the move.

Thank you for your honest answer.

Elephant Walk, I am filing away everything you took the time to post in response to my questions. You answers are quite valuable to me and they give me a small amount of insight that I did not have prior. I appreciate your time very much!

Like I said, there are nice parts (basically most of the Lee High School area) and not so nice parts.

The Rose Festival is a pretty big money thing, but not any more so than, say, debuting at Idlewild.

It is not so much that if you are from south florida that you are going to get slammed. But that if they personify that southern florida stereotype of looking and acting like a complete outsider. And even if you move to Mississippi that isn't going to change much other than where they put their hometown on rush paperwork, theyll be able to tell your sons have lived a significant amount of time in south florida by the way they talk and dress.

well yea i understand that but it seems that if you want to be in a fraternity and have that image, then it seems that you should deter away from the schools like Duke, Wake Forest, Cornell, Stanford, UPenn, etc. The ideally thought of really smart schools

Word of advice sport. You ignorantly talk like this during rush down here and I promise you, good houses won't give you the time of fucking day. For one, you sound like a prick. Two, there are a lot of guys in some really good houses at UT that are all from East Texas. I'm sure we'd all love to hear you tell us in person about the "redneck capitals" that we are all from. All you are doing here is making yourself look like a typical Dallas asshole.

Your assessment of Tyler is ignorant and really not even close to accurate. That's all I'm going to say. If you care to tell me more about the city I'm from I'm all ears.

As far as your comments about Tyler being a breeding ground for fraternity men.......it is exactly the kind of place that spits out guys that are capable of going anywhere and getting in very good houses, and it's done consistently. There isn't a city in Texas more Southern in all aspects of life. That should be plenty enough explanation.

BTW never posted this, but this is how it works at USC pretty much...

TIER 1
KA
SAE
Sig Nu

TIER 2
Kappa Sig
Sig Chi
ATO
Sig Ep

TIER 3
Pike
Pi Kap
DTD
Chi Psi
Phi Sigma Kappa

I will note that Pike just got chartered here and are growing incredibly quick, but they have a very northern stereotype. Which basically at South Carolina is looked upon as a negative thing by the greek community

KA and SAE do all of their stuff together, tailgates and most parties but then do their own stuff sometimes or with different fraternities. Sigma Nu is the other big dawg on campus, but it seems a lot of other fraternities have problems with them or tensions.

NOTE: this is all stereotypes mostly by the sororities and could be argued.

The SEC is an old line GLO conference and is very close on who they recruit from.

Cities, that is a new one on me as GLOs like to try and recruit from Areas and members they know. But at smaller State Universitys it is important because of the size of the H S and where the students or going to atten.

Arkansas if they were smart would have joined the Big 8 as it would have been a perfect fit.:) Excellent school though for sure!:cool:

macallan speaks alot of truth.

Be respectful. Depending on the part of Dallas, they're not always looked that well upon. Walk on eggshells throughout rush and pledgeships in terms of offending people. You can be a dick afterwards if you so choose.

I meant no offense, I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have said anything at all.

You'll make a good pledge

Haha, that's what I was thinking.

Well, don't confuse Southeast Texas with Northeast Texas. To follow up on what macallan said, my family comes from another small town in Northeast Texas- not too far from his- and we were founders of the town. Coming from an old Northeast Texas family is about as good a Texas blue-blood credential as you can get.

As for North Dallas- like others said there is lots of new money and there are lots of transplants there. Not necessarily bad people, but in my days at UT there were 2 large fraternities where a significant number of North Dallas people went because they did not have a lot of options.

Houston has areas like that too. When I was an active I focused on Houston rush and hearing some rushee go on about how they were from Sugarland like it was something special was a big strike in my book.

Just to clarify though before it gets lost in this discussion- people are going to look at you first and how you present yourself- in attire, behavior, discretion and treatment of women. If you fit in to what a chapter wants, you will know it and they will know it.

If you are borderline, then where you came from and who can vouch for you can affect decisions since it gives secondary information which is important.

Think of it like a job interview. If you go on a job interview and the people who will decide whether to hire you are on the fence about how the interview went- then they will look more closely at your resume, grades and school to make a final decision. Granted that was looked at when you first applied, but it will be more carefully considered if you do not ace the interview process. And as always, it is better to just be yourself and see where it goes. Putting on a fake front does not work in job interviews- and it doesn't work when rushing good chapters since they will want to meet you several times before they decide, giving plenty of time to see what is really there.

And that is how the world works in general. Sure coming from certain areas you will have something extra to prove over someone from a known and trusted environment, but it does not rule you out automatically.

I think this is the most important thing to learn from the thread.

EW, I think you should start a Tiers of the Big 12.

lmao

I have been following this thread with interest, particularly as it wandered off to the subject of "old" money. Question: Why wouldn't these supposedly "old" money people be going to the likes of SMU, Tulane, Vandy, Emory, Duke, W & L, the Ivies or elite eastern schools rather public institutions? Probably not more than 10% of the graduates of my daughters' prep schools went to state schools.

That's at least somewhat true, from my prep school about an equal number (5 or so out of 90) went to SMU and UT. Some schools like Vandy and Duke have been attracting more and more Northern students as well as uping the notch academically. Like with the Ivies they've become much more selective schools. Even with 'old money' a lot of the time it wouldn't be sufficient to overcome a weak applicant.

Also, many just want to be close to home or go to their parents' college.

I'm going to guess that you aren't from the South. Typically, I think old money Southern kids are going to want to go where their parents went (or schools that are in the family) or to schools that are in good college towns and have great Greek systems.

Out of all of those schools you listed, Vandy, Washington and Lee, and SMU are probably going to be the most heavily populated with your typical, wealthy, Southern old money type guy. I don't know many guys down here from well established families that would find going to school in the Northeast very desirable. I don't at all.

Realize that there are state schools in existence that are extremely good schools.......better or on par with some that you mentioned even. Take for instance Texas, where I go. Top 10-15 in Business, Law, Medicine, and Engineering. There are not a whole lot of schools out there that can claim that. I pretty much chose between SMU and Texas and when it came down to it......I didn't find a reason why I should have my parents pay 20,000$ + more a year for me to go to a school that probably isn't as academically strong as UT.

you like UT's greek life? i'm thinking about going there for grad school for my MBA