WOW! That's such a long time!!!

LOL! When the pledge period was shortened to six weeks, we were all saying "That is no where near long enough! How are they supposed to learn enough to initiate?" And now it seems like it's just fine. :)

Wow...for both OPA and Coyote, the pledge/new member period is about 3 months. (And OPA pledges are NOT allowed to wear letters--so I had to wait 3 months to wear any t-shirt with the Greek letters printed at all!) :)

^^^
Really? When I pledged OPA, I wore printed letters, but not sewn-in letters. If a pledge was to drop out, they were suppose to give the printed shirts back. Of course, I couldn't wear any letters at all with DST.

I am and also wondered how many people might know her.

However, I never felt it might be an issue for her or her daughters. To me, her article seemed more like a personal confession of sorts. Perhaps a first and important step in her healing process. As the saying goes, admitting you have a problem is half the battle. In any case, I would hope that she had the sense to set down with her daughters, her family, and her friends and let them know that the article was going to be published. And perhaps include in their discussion her reasons why she felt she needed to "go public" as it were.

I confess that I didn't read all five pages of posts, and this might have been noted already, but I think her story just points out that we ought to be really careful with any "standards" issue stories.

She was date raped and abandoned by people who should have been her friends.

But how many of her "sisters" were told that she was making the group look bad because she was having sex in public at fraternity parties? I mean told about it in a way that made it seem she elected to do it? Who knows?

It seems especially sad to me that she, like many others, seems eager to believe that her experience is representative of Greek life when it sure as seems unlike anything I ever experienced.

I know that I heard stories about fraternities doing stuff like that*, but since I was never much for hanging out at fraternity houses, I never actual knew of any specific instances of it happening. And I never heard of anyone being kicked out of a group based on any one or two instances of misbehavior, particularly without some investigation of events by committees involving advisers, who probably wouldn't have blamed the victim of a sexual assault, but maybe I'm too optimistic.

*These were FOAF stories with not specific victim or perpetrator mentioned. It's not like I could have even tried to encourage the girl to report it or anything.

IMHO, we ought to tread carefully before we judge what a rape survivor ought to feel when suddenly confronted with a reminder of the assault. I agree that if the attack is still affecting her daily life, then it's smart to seek help for that, but plenty of people seek help and still experience intrusive feelings about the trauma. A horror like that is not curable. Different people will recover at different speeds, and carry different permanent scars. Whatever her feelings may be twenty years later, they are valid, and saying that she ought to "get past it" and "move on" -- like that's just a choice -- is quite dismissive of her trauma and its consequences.

Aren't you eager to believe that your positive experience is representative?
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FreshBerry

As for your last sentence, I believe it's human nature to believe ANY positive experience is representative, unless you get some sort of perverse joy from doing the opposite. If you go to CVS all the time and normally have no problem except for ONE day a clerk isn't the nicest, that's hardly reason for you to say that all CVSs are horrid, unless you get off on putting things and people down.

We aren't saying she needs to "get past it" just because she freaked out in Gymboree when she saw an ex-sister. It's understandable that an encounter like that would unnerve her. This woman cannot be around ANY LARGE GROUP OF WOMEN without feeling trauma. That isn't a typical experience of a rape survivor. She has 2 small children, and she really needs to get help before she implants the mindset in them that other women can't be trusted. They don't deserve to suffer because of her experience.

Not only that - they're both little girls. A boy might not transfer that emotion like these little girls will.

Yep, me too. We were pinned the first week of February, and initiation was after the first week of the following semester. Of course, in my case, initiation (to AXiD) will be 18 years later!

i don't feel bad for this woman. sorry if that makes me sound like a cold bitch. we've all made mistakes and those of us who have taken responsibility for them and dealt with them have moved on. she feels like nothing was her fault and because of this, has victimized herself to a point of not trusting women. sure, the sorority sisters were not good people. she was innocent and didn't know any better. but if after all that happened to her she still can't take responsibility and recognize that continuing in the sorority after her sisters allowed a fraternity brother to treat her like that was a mistake, it's her own issue.

p.s. and before the question is asked, i've been in a situation like hers before, except with "friends" not sorority sisters. i'm from a small town and led a very sheltered life until college. i too lost my virginity very soon after started school. and later, after i willingly got drunk to fit in and was taken advantage of at a party without a word of protest from my "friends" i never spoke to any of them again. i at least had enough sense to realize that i didn't have to be like that; i could turn my life around and expect people to earn my trust rather than just give it away or in her case, never give it again.

Excellent post.

^^^Yes, it is.



To PM_Mama00:

I am so glad I have a lot of really great, positive and supportive women in my life. However, I have been burned by many "women" who I considered friends at one time or another. So, I definitely understand where you're coming from.

I went through quite a bit of trauma throughout my early education... basically from grades 4-12. Constant bullying and constant harassment- and after all these years and as great as my life is now, I run into some of those "kids" that treated me that wa.y They come up and act all excited to see me and for some reason it just brings back all that shame and fear I had as a child.

Those kinds of experiences stay with you, and even though you may think you are past them, you still are haunted.

I think even the most successful people that have had experiences like this probably feel the same way.

But wouldn't it almost have to be based on the fact that many GLOs survive and prosper over time?

I'm not saying my experience is universal, just that it's more likely to be typical because kids keep signing up for it year after year. If the experience weren't generally positive, why would they?

ETA: About the article writer generally, I think you invite a different kind of response when you elect to publish a column in the New York Times.

If she were a someone that I knew personally, I don't think it would enter my head in a million years to even analyze her experience, must less try to judge how I thought a person SHOULD respond. You'd listen; you'd validate; you'd see if you could help; you might see if she wanted help finding a professional to work with in regards to how she felt about other women if she seemed to be asking you to do so.

But when one writes a newspaper column, you're making a public statement and inviting public response. And at the I-read-her-story-online level, it's perfectly appropriate to make judgments and reach conclusions based as much on your own experience as the one she related. The conclusion that I reached is that her sorority sisters were jerks, who may have been misinformed about her circumstances, but who in any case failed her in a time of crisis. But it doesn't actually say that much about Greek life or women that resonates with my experiences generally. Other reactions, obviously varied.

And perhaps not everyone can be as strong as you? I'm sick of people on here thinking that everyone thinks and feels the same way they do about experiences. Everyone is different.

Thank you. You just described exactly why I don't go into certain bars in my area.

Isn't he already?

There's an irony in that many of the posts call for the woman to "get a life and move on." When people who suffer traumas of various kinds do just that and bury them in their "past," one day, prompted by some strange occurance, out of the blue these things may come rushing back into their consciousness with all the same raw emotions and ambivalent feelings about the people involved.These things can't be swept under the rug of our hearts and minds.This is why we do need clergy,friends, family and psychological professionals, at times.

Which is precisely why many of us SAID she should seek professional help, including myself. Did you miss those posts?

Been MIA of late.

Ok, so I'll post that for posterity, then. :) Cheers.

She may have sought professional help already; the article doesn't say that she's never tried. And even if she gets help in the future, that doesn't mean it will work. There's no penicillin that cures rape.

Which part of the story was her fault? The part where she was raped, or the part where she stayed within the only community she knew at a huge university 1800 miles from home?
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HOW TO ROLL A BLUNT

Getting drunk and passing out was absolutely her fault.

Following him upstairs and never saying no is absolutely her fault.

She wasn't new to partying. She admits that. It wasn't a situation where she had no idea how many beers it took to make her drunk - by her account, she'd been partying pretty hard since she came to campus.

If she'd been drugged or something it would be a different matter, but she doesn't bring that up as a possibility.

To be brutally honest, I'm getting very tired of women these days claiming anything and everything was rape. I'm not saying the fraternity man didn't rape her; he did, if he had sex with her [that part was really ambiguous to me]. But to accept NO responsibility is foolish.

It's come to a point where my male friends have to check IDs to make sure she's telling the truth that she's over 18 [especially for freshmen], make sure she has consumed not a drop of alcohol, AND make sure that she won't regret it tomorrow. That's a burden, considering all those are things that SHE should control. I'm tired of hearing stories of men accused of "gray rape"; "I invited him into my room, we were making out and ended up having sex. I totally regret it! He raped me!" We shouldn't just assume that everyone who claims they were raped was, indeed, raped.

This stuff actually happens. And it's ridiculous. A false claim of rape, even if he's not convicted, can ruin a man's life. Ladies: would you REALLY trust someone if you found out that he'd been accused of rape, even if he had been proven innocent? I wouldn't.

I find it odd (and this is not to blame the woman herself) that she even felt comfortable to join a sorority that was obviously soo judgemental in her mind to begin with. I had stuff happen like that to me in recruitment and obviously I didn't want to go there, but that's just me.

I agree with fantASTic to a degree, people need to take responsibilty for their whereabouts. You have to take care of yourself and be responsible for yourself. You can't just drink and expect anyone to take care of you, I don't care where you are. Even I don't really pay any mind to my drunk friends (and I stopped trying a long time ago). I'm usually the only one fully sober and I can't be bothered to run around and care for a bunch of people who aren't concerned with their welfare. I went out to have a good time too, not to babysit! That is why both men and women need to learn to make better life decisions.

^^^^ And it's almost impossible to control a raging drunken person who doesn't care what you have to say. You can talk until your teeth fall out; if they want to do something, they'll make it happen.

hear mother freakin hear!!!

we JUST had a situation on my campus where this girl got really drunk at a bar, went back with some friends to a guy's apartment, drank some more, said she wanted to stay when her friends were leaving, and then had sex with one of the guys who owned the apartment. the next morning the girl claimed rape. now, let's see where she slipped up first...was it going to someone's apartment that she didn't know when she was already drunk? was it when she KEPT drinking even though she admittedly was already very intoxicated? or how about when she didn't leave the apartment when the rest of her friends did? come on people, that's not rape, especially when the guy was very drunk as well. it really upsets me that this young guy (who i had known in the residence halls and was really a nice guy from what i saw) is going to be branded as a rapist for the rest of his life. the charges have since been dropped but everyone on campus now knows him as "that guy who raped that girl".

i understand what you mean. i was only criticizing the fact that she feels all women are not trustworthy because of her experience; sorry if that's not how it came across. if i were to see one of the people i was talking about in my situation, i can tell you exactly what i'd feel: my blood would run cold and i would want to leave as soon as possible. it would bring me back to a place in my life i have no wish to revisit. i empathize with her in that aspect. the difference is that i've acknowledged my role in that situation and don't place all the blame on the people around me. but as others have said, the fact that she can't get over her distrust of all women, just just the one in particular, shows that she clearly needs some help.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also think it's the responsibility of a guy to ensure his own safety. So if that means he has to check IDs, check and double check that a girl is willing, then so be it.

In general I think it's a bad idea to have sex with someone when either party is "drunk" to the point that either of them are not actually thinking about what they are doing. Not to mention the fact that you're having sex with a person that you barely know. All of it, for both parties, plays are part in the outcome. If the sex is really that important enough to put yourself in such a position, then that is a decision that you consciously made and have to deal with the outcomes.

On this I totally agree and I think how rape accusations are originally handled /perceived are always biased toward one of the parties, but the only way to avoid this (and it isn't 100%) is to make smarter decisions concerning who you sleep with, and under what circumstances it happens.

I agree about personal responsibility, but as a note my friends/family and I have "rules" so to speak when we go out. You come as you go, i.e. if we came together we leave together, no if and or buts about it. What she does after she gets home is her business. Also, the friends that tend to get shitfaced when they drink, stay HOME when we go out because we don't want to babysit all nite. Of course someone almost always ends up drinking more than they intended, but we tend to be really strong about cutting someone off, and when necessary taking them home if it gets outta hand. It sucks when you have to cut your night short but in the end it seems more worth me being temporarily mad at a friend about her drunken behavior, than being upset about things that could happen to her if we just left her on her own.

As weird as this sounds, I don't know if the date rape thing is what is traumatizing to her the most. In her article I believe she said she felt that way with any large group of women BEFORE she joined the sorority and that most of her friends up to that point were guys.

Some people might feel socially awkward around some or all people and this weirdness might have to do with self-esteem or something so the fact that all of this happened (her sisters giving her the boot) was the icing on the cake for her.

Wow.

Oh trust me honey, I never arrive with them and I never leave with them. They are just my friends who happen to be there at the same time. I drive with my bf or by myself, not with people who don't possess the ability to party responsibly 100% of the time. I don't babysit, I will not go out of my way to protect you from yourself. I tried and it got nasty. So now that's just my policy. Take care of yourself. You're a damn adult. That's policy.

I agree with what you're saying. A teacher in my high school retired early because of a false accusation of indecently touching a girl. He had been with the district for about 30 years and the girl was getting revenge on him because he disciplined her boyfriend.

BUT... your first paragraph is why many girls who really ARE raped won't report it. It's a sad, lose-lose situation.

I agree. I think that in any rape case, there is going to be people who blame the man and people who blame the woman. In an ideal world, we would judge each case individually, with no prejudices. Unfortunately, that's not how it is.

I guess the question is what's the worse crime - allowing a real rapist to go free or locking up a man who did nothing wrong?

Locking up a man who did nothing wrong...that is supposed to be the basis of our justice system. Unfortunately, its a subject that has many facets that complicate the picture.

Being stupid =/= it's her fault that she got raped.

Yes, she could have prevented it with better decision-making, although as I recall, date rape was NOT on the radar screen 20+ years ago the way it is today. I never saw any warnings back then, no mention of it in otherwise-comprehensive high school sex ed, nothing. But the upshot is that there's no statute saying that the proper penalty for clueless alcohol use is being raped.

The stories about women making the decision to have sex, regretting it the next day, and falsely accusing a man of rape are completely off-topic. The law is totally clear in every state of the union. If she was passed out and he had sex with her, that's rape. The article is perfectly clear, too; it says that she was passed out and "lost her virginity" in this incident. It's pretty stunning to connect a foolish victim, who only endangered herself, with the kind of selfish liar who'd ruin a man's life with a false accusation.

Yes, I made much better decisions than this in college. Yes, if I have a daughter, best believe she'll be educated about these risks. No, I don't want to spend my party time looking after stupid drunk people. But the author has paid for her mistakes a thousand times over. Nobody EVER deserves to be raped. Rape has a perpetrator, and there's no sharing of the blame for the crime. The blame's on the rapist.
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Juicynka

That's right...her sister's are not to blame for the rape, so why try to blame them in this article? Women of the world are not to blame for her rape, so why try to blame them for her experience? I understand she has a lot of baggage, but a lot of her anger seems misplaced. I wouldn't usually argue with a victim on how she deals with her pain, but she was very public about her fear of women and how this is affecting her daily life. If she were not a mother, I'd feel sorry for her and wish she'd get some help. As soon as she stated that she is the mother of two girls, she moves from the solitary victim to the potential cause of her own children's self hatred and distrust of women. She owes it to her daughters to overcome this problem. No one is pretending like this is going to be easy, and I completely understand that she has reasons to be scared, but those reasons can't justify scarring her children.