How so? As in how do you define "flagship"? The reason I ask is that I was under the impression that Greek Life was older and more established at Cal Berkeley.

SC 's financial aid are really loans. There are Presidential, Trustee and another level scholarship. But there really don't have a lot of scholarships. And for admission the theatre school also has auditions: be it portfolio or audition.

I wasn't aware that any of the UC schools guaranteed admission. Some of them are much easier to get into than others. The hardest ones are UCLA, UC Berkeley, UCSD, UC Irvine and UCSB. But really a big reason why those are the hardest to get into is just that so many kids apply to each one of those schools...they're all in very desirable locations.

Anyway, USC's entrance requirements are no different than what most schools recommend - really require - for kids to get in today. It's just that the kids that actually get in far exceed the minimums. And yet even with all those requirements, I know my high school still required stuff like drama, speech, art or special elective vocational classes just to graduate...and that was in 1996. And I think that's a good thing...we need creative people in this world, too.

Auditions for theatre, music, voice, etc. majors is also pretty typical, but it's especially hard to get into USC's film school, which is arguably the best in the country.

Believe it or not, my school (Pepperdine) cost even more than USC, so I know how financial aid works these days! USC does offer plenty of need-based grant aid, too...it's just not called a "scholarship." But it's still free money. And just because it costs a fortune doesn't mean it's all rich kids that go there. USC has a huge endowment.

I think most greeks in Calif. would agree that USC has the strongest greek system in California. Berkeley is an old system, but it is not as popular at the school as at USC.

Football Fan, obviously USC is smaller than almost any flagship public university. But it is still much larger than many private schools.

So i stumbled upon this thread and it was very interesting, especially the question and answer to "how do they know you are Jewish?" if it came down to looking at recruitment applications I could of seriously confused a sorority. I'm Jewish went to and worked at a Jewish summer camp all my life but attended a Catholic High School. I can only imagine what people would of thought i was.

I have some distant cousins who are Jewish but live in an area where the public schools aren't safe so the parents opted for private schools. Like you, they went to Catholic schools, in their case because that was the only private school option. And, considering their last name...well, there was no doubt that there had to a Jewish relative. Did you ever ask/find out what your sisters thought you were?

I'm sorry, I have not looked back at this thread in almost 6 months and just noticed this question....actually yes, in 1970 it was indeed on the application - a line next to "Religion?"
Yes, this was back when dinosaurs were stomping around and we reporters used typewriters...manual...not computers!
I went to a job interview in 1974 where they actually asked (ONLY) young women applicants when they intended to have children. :eek: Although that was pretty extreme, even back then!

there was also a space on my 1975 rush application for religion. perhaps it mattered to some chapters on campus (i don't know for sure), but it did not matter in my chapter.

I think I posted this in another thread, but while the religious "walls" were removed from NPC sororities on my campus, many sororities weren't going for it. When I was assistant to our Rush Chair, she sat down with the PNM list, and started scratching out the names of everyone whose name sounded even the littest bit Jewish. I called her on doing so, it became a huge issue, and I made my first call to Executive Headquarters. She received a call AND a letter, stating that every girl (we were girls then ;)) was to be considered on her own merits.

Honeychile: Good for you! It takes people with integrity and morality to change the world. (and yes..we were girls back when I was in college.) I don't remember if the application that I filled out had a religion line, but, as I mentioned it was pretty obvious that I was Jewish because of the area where I lived.

My youngest will be rushing in fall 2009. And I know that she will be able and will pick a place where she feels most at home.

Honestly, the thought of religion coming into play during recruitment never crossed my mind until I spoke with a friend of mine who joined a historically Jewish chapter. Of course, I knew very little about Greek life before I got to college, but I also grew up in an area with a very heavily Jewish population and where, as a Catholic, I was a minority. I am also of Polish descent but, when pronounced in English (as most people do) my last name sounds Jewish. In fact, most of my friends growing up and through high school were shocked to find out that I was not Jewish, based upon my name. It is interesting to think that had I rushed years ago, based upon my name and where I was from, decisions may have been made based on religious assumptions- be they correct or incorrect.

Heck, I went to a job interview in 1992 where I was asked if I was married and if I had children, and when I said no to both was asked why not. The dinos may be dying, but they sure ain't all dead. :mad:

From what I am told by our former council members, the women would ask pnm's "So what are you doing for the holidays?" if formal recruitment was in the fall. A Jewish girl would answer about the Jewish holidays coming up in September, just a few weeks away. Christians and others would have a why-the-heck-is-she-asking-me-about-Christmas-break-in-August look on her face!

In my own Recruitment thread, I mentioned how one woman talked about the Sedar Plate that her boyfriend gave her - little hints like that. The Roman Catholic sorority asked about the nuns at grade school. But that's when those things mattered.

The recruit/"rushee" information form from the local Panhellenic Association here still asks for "Religious Affiliation".

....wow...:eek: If I may ask, where are you located? What is the campus atmosphere like where you are?

Thanks ellebud for such a great read! While I know it exsisted it's difficult imagining a time in which religious affiliation mattered. Congrats on AEΦ !

LML,
StarGazer08

Wow, what a wonderful retro thread. Thanks so much for sharing.

I wonder if part of that is for help with recs - like if Suzie PNM is not known by the women in the PA but she puts "Spaghetti Monster" for religious affiliation, the women can then call others they know who go to the Spaghetti Monster church and ask about her.

Oh, I'm in troubles now! There is a local church which has Spaghetti Dinners what seems to be every other week. It's a local joke, because if you don't go early, it's so watered down that you need a bib just to eat it.

I just know I'm going to slip and call it the Spaghetti Monster church!

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...ttiMonster.jpg

(sorry for the hijack)

I want to add this story about one of my friends. When he was in college and going through rush, the fraternity that he felt most comfortable with was historically Jewish. He was Christian, educated by the Sisters of Mercy and Jesuits.

After attending a couple of parties, many of the brothers were quite enthusiastic about him joining their fraternity. Quite late in the process. the brothers learned that my friend wasn't Jewish. While some of the brothers promoted him, he knew that the possibility of him joining this fraternity was fading fast.

When one of the brothers who was skeptical about him asked why should a Jewish fraternity offer a bid to a gentile, he said "Well, you guys might have need of a shabbos goy."

A lot of skeptics were won over when they realized that he knew a shabbos goy was, especially since a number of members had never heard the term (A shabbos goy, for those of you unfamilar with the term, is a Gentile employee of a Jewish household who job is to do those tasks that a observant Jew cannot do on the Sabbath; in some observant households, such tasks could be as mundane as turning on the lights.)

Needless to say, he got a bid and was a very active member. He married a Jewish woman, although neither ever converted to the other's religion. He and his wife will soon celebrate their silver wedding anniversary

^^^ Cute story, RedRover! :D

RedRover:

I love your story! Incidentally my husband isn't Jewish, but our children are Jews. I mentioned that during my time in college women went to college to meet their husband the rationale for religious segregation was that we would all meet potential spouses that were from our background (the "comfort factor"). Who knew that I would meet an east coast Episcopalian from an Ivy League school?

I was hanging out with some people earlier this week that really made me reconsider just how dated this thread really is.

I was hanging with an alum of a UT sorority (won't say which one) who said that Jewish PNMs who don't wish to join the 2 traditionally Jewish sororities at Texas often wear cross necklaces during recruitment to ensure that the members of the other GLOs know they are looking to join there.

It especially makes me wonder because there was a thread started about this recently by a PNM... at Texas I believe.

This same woman also confirmed that the two Jewish sororities are (to her knowledge obviously) still 100% Jewish at UT. I knew that one of them was based on my relationships with members. I didn't realize the other was as well (assuming that what this woman said is accurate).

It really made me think.

Wow. If accurate, just wow.

Hmmmm, well I am an active who has now been through several recruitments and have never heard this. So if women really are doing it, the message isn't getting through. It makes me really sad to hear that someone would even consider doing this, and makes me even sadder that a rumor like this would be perpetuated even if true.

As far as I know, this is indeed true. But I am sure you already know that many Jewish women come into recruitment with their heart set on one of those particular houses since there is a definite tier level even in that niche. Suiciding and dropping out of recruitment because you're not invited back to the "top tier" historically Jewish house is far from infrequent.

It also is important to note that while the historically Jewish houses are still 100% Jewish members, the other sororities on campus are far from being 100% non-Jewish.

Lady Longhorn, honestly I'm so glad you responded to my post. The alum's comments from Thursday night honestly threw me for a complete loop, especially because this had already been discussed on GC recently. I don't know what group you're in - I still don't want to say what group the person I met was in, but she graduated in 2007 and was highly involved in her chapter's recruitment, so I had no reason to disbelieve what she said. Things she said in other regards were definitely accurate, in terms of insider info, tiers, recent Greek life developments at UT, etc... it's just odd to me that this would be the case.

Yes, I'm aware of the tiers with the Jewish sororities at UT... I have a few friends who are alums of one of the groups and it's striking to me that all their little sisters seem to have joined the "top" group... I think the lower tier group is really having a struggle over whether it wants to remain 100% Jewish or not... although, I actually think that they've made their bed and decided to lay in it on that one at this point.

I remember the thread from the girl who was a pnm at UT. There were FAR more layers to this young woman's story. She, while Jewish, referred to Jews as "you" Jews. (I don't remember if this was in a thread or a private message.) At a very basic level she was searching not to find a home but to reinvent herself with a new identity. I also find it hard to believe that young women who want to signal that they want to be available to all types of sororities would wear a cross (if Jewish) or a Star of David (if Christian). When one wants to be available to all houses (if there is open religious bidding) there are ways to let people know, as opposed to wearing a treasured symbol of a religion (Christian or Jewish) as a sort of "Hey, I'm available!" sign. (I am aware that the signal, "Hey I'm Jewish/Christian and I want you to know!" is fine, but then a pnm isn't taking another's religious identity as a frivolity.)

Totally agreed about the earlier UT thread where the PNM was saying some really inappropriate things. That's why I haven't bothered to look up that thread to help her or anything.

I can't emphasize enough that I have no first-hand knowledge of this situation at UT myself. I was totally floored by the woman who told me this in the first place and didn't know whether to believe it. Lady Longhorn says she's never heard it so maybe it's totally false. I just can't imagine where it even came from though, if there's nothing to it.

The only explanation I could think of is that the top tier Jewish sorority at UT, as Lady Longhorn notes, is much sought-after, and in a tight timed situation, chapters might cut a Jewish woman if they weren't sure she was interesting in joining them, thinking she was only pursuing the Jewish orgs. But again, as you said, there seem to be other ways to signal that besides wearing a symbol of a religion that's not yours.

I don't mean to cause controversy, I was just shocked to have this paraded in front of me in the 21st century and thought it was interesting/relevant to this thread - whether true or not.

I will say that when I rushed...in the last millenium...I HEARD that Texas had "Jewish Rush", which at that time meant (I guess) that Jews rushed separately. And in my time it might have been the way my rush could have been construed, although my school had only one Jewish house. We might as well have rushed separately since with the exception of one young women, who sort of hemmed and hawed as to whether she was Jewish, because we really didn't (AT THAT TIME) have options.

Very interesting, I'd never heard of that.

The PNM in that other thread had a whole lot of other issues. I think the mods deleted it because it got ugly.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around someone wearing a blatant and revered symbol of another religion as some sort of secret message during recruitment. I can understand the fear of being dropped because a group assumes you will want a specific house when you want to keep an open mind, but it seems so extreme to do something like this. I'm not saying it doesn't happen ever (because, let's face it, a lot of weird stuff happens during recruitment!), but I have never heard it mentioned in any recruitment conversations I have had with members of my GLO and my friends in other sororities.

I would really have to second guess a new sister's honesty about everything if she's started out a lifetime relationship doing something like that. I mean, what does she say? "Hey, y'all, I know I was wearing a cross during recruitment, but guess what? Now that I'm a new member, I can tell you I really am Jewish and just faked being Christian so you wouldn't assume I wanted to go XYZ. So I can't go out tonight because it's Shabbat." I just can't fathom it.

The groups that were traditionally Jewish at UGA when I was there did recruitment with everybody else, but since both NPC groups were under official campus total, they both probably had COR events too. (And I think most if not all of the NPC has Jewish members and both "Jewish" groups had some non-Jewish members.)

It wouldn't surprise me if "Jewish Rush" was kind of a mythological name that crept up at UT to describe COR events that happened later in the year that would have been targeted at Jewish friends from home. It sounds bad, but in practice was probably pretty effective.

Lady Longhorn, do you really think that anyone would remember who wore a cross? The whole thing (wearing religion items not from your faith to intentionally mislead) sounds kind of nutty, I agree. But if a PNM was willing to misrepresent her faith to up her recruitment odds, I'm guessing she wasn't particularly devout to being with.

BTW, no "controversy" felt here. I truly believe in an open honest and respectful discussion about this (and other topics) And in this thread all the above criteria has been, in my humble opinion, met.

To LadyLonghorn and Breathtesgelatin:

My family and I went to UT for an atheletic event. Did a little sightseeing on campus and around Austin. We really had a wonderful time. One thing that struck us was the friendliness of Austin-ites. Lost? Ask anyone and they'll help. In a restaurant waiting for a table? People strike up conversations...we actually helped some people who were coming to Los Angeles for a vacation. The University was amazing...we drove through it and we very impressed. Went shopping on the Drag...but since we're from SC we didn't buy any Longhorn stuff...lol. :)

I have not heard of PNMs wearing a cross to appear nonJewish. I am appalled.

But I have heard of members of religious minorities being encouraged to wear a cross or Star of David to signal a chapter's openness during recruitment. For eg an AEPhi at my school wore a cross during recruitment to suggest that Christians could be a member if they wanted to be. I was encouraged to wear my Star of David to signal that we welcomed Jewish members. Not all sororities were so open at my U. back in the 80s.