In PA, you are. My mother was able to evict a tenant due to drug dealing.

The bolded part is where your analogy breaks down - you're clearly responsible, in some measure, for activities that you condone or order on your property, regardless of whether you're there.

Remember, the indictment is not going to list all of the government's evidence against Vick - there are many reports of eyewitness accounts placing Vick at the scene of fighting, and of him moving dogs personally to other states to wager and fight (hence, Federal case) . . . the 'missing link' in the case that litAKAtor noted won't necessarily be in the initial indictment/complaint (which I'm sure she knows, but is worth pointing out).

Given those reports, I'm not so sure the media coverage has been as heavy-handed as some claim - I think it's been surprisingly fair, honestly.

However, you'd say that you let them use the house but that you didn't know they were going to play for money. (Much like Vick knew there were people and dogs at his house, just not what they were doing in this hypothetical)

I really haven't followed it closely enough to know all the details, I was just operating under the assumption that there wasn't anything tying him to it other than owning the property for the sake of discussion and my curiousity.

fyi: it is a regular circus down here in richmond...they're closing a whole street down from 6a to 6p for the media that is coming in to be at the courthouse...i hope this is quick and precise!

That is wishful thinking if I've ever heard it. Good luck ;)

Don't get me wrong, I never said the allegations weren't serious, they are . . but don't be misled either . . just because someone is indicted doesn't mean they will win. neither does it mean that the government has a very very strong change of winning. . it just means there was enough evidence to proceed to trial. . .the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" standard is a VERY HIGH standard . .and unless they have some fool proof hard core tangible evidence linking him . . the informant testimony may not fly.

In some cases you are. . but not always. They have to present evidence that he either was acquiescing to what was going on, or was an active participant. . both of which require that he have some knowledge. Just because something happens on your property doesn't necessarily mean you are always responsible. Case in point .. if you rent a house to someone and someone is selling drugs out of the house, you aren't responsible and can't be held criminally liable for the trafficking of drugs unless there is some evidence that you knew that activity was going on. KNOWLEDGE is key here and if they don't have any evidence that he knew what was going on - the charges aren't going to stick . .period

Thanks . .this is true. All of the information is not and won't be in the indictment, but I am hoping that have some significant evidence. And as you know "eyewitness accounts" are always questionable. It will remain to be seen how much they really saw or whether it was just what they "heard" Actually, I have not heard of these reports about him moving dogs only him sending money for dogs to be purchased in other states (via the indictment) which were subsequently used in dog fights in both VA and NC. Apparently there is a Federal Statute that makes dog fighting, and the gaming of it, illegal (that is my recollection of the indictment, but I could be wrong).

I would have to disagree when you look at it in relation to the NBA referee situation. Again, that is far more egregious in my eyes vs. Vick and dog fighting. . . but that is jmo.

But a Federal Grand Jury indicting you is one thing vs. local po-po rolling up in the house busting you for illegal activities...

There would have been neighborhood complaints just due to the nighttime noise ordinances during these alleged "dog fights".

And it is not about 2 male dogs fighting to the death. It is a matter of improper disposal of carcases that breeds maggots and flies among several other things. Not to mention brutal fight wounds exposing both the jugular vein and the carotid artery--which means there was a large sum of blood--which means that makes it a "biohazard"... Moreover, I KNOW he did not have a licensed veterinarian, so pain and distress was NEVER allieviated with Bunoproprine or other vet cleared NSAIDS relievers. And special K is a controlled substance.

The breeding requires a 2-3 dog per kennel max with hay. Only 1 litter per breeding, with special Purina breeder chow for dogs... And kennel changing out occurs 2-3 per week. Moreover, all dogs MUST have strong environmental enrichement due to their social behavior. No matter if Pit Bulls are psycho or not, the fact is if you DON'T walk them or let them play, YOU WILL make them go crazy...

Now, I know Vick may be a dog lover and breed them. But I skeeriousllllyyyy doubt he was following AVMA guidelines, much less AKC or Pit Bull club guidelines.

The other issue is he crossed these "questionably illegal" animals over State Lines... Pit Bulls are illegal in SOME states. That means to me he lacked knowledge of the permits, licensure and papers. Whether he actually did it himself of that was his business, his issue was HE was ultimately responsible for the health and welfare of the dogs. And that is SPCA requirements...

He dayum lucky he was not a researcher because he would have been crucified...

It does make me wonder though, some of these things that are happening to him--was he set up for this fall from grace?

As my Brother pointed out, the Media is all over this.
Following is a sample of what the Op-Ed cartoonist think/feel about this.
There are some rather well thought out 'toons:
http://cagle.com/news/VicksDogFight/main.asp

Not that this is part of the indictment because I haven't even tried to read it, but don't they also have the cooperative witness who watched Vick retrieve cash to pay the owner of a dog who had beaten one of their kennels dogs?

And a video of him at a fight being greeted by name?

I mean, it's a little more than just buying and breeding pit bulls.

I read recently that the US Government has something like a 95% (maybe 98%) success rate in trials and hasn't lost a case since 1994. I just don't think they take cases to trial that they don't think they have an excellent chance of winning.

Especially high profile cases with the kind of evidence that has leaked out about this one.

You wouldn't want to think they're going to lose this one, but I'm constantly surprised by the government's ability to goof stuff up.

My fiancee thinks that he will be able to get a lawyer who will be able to get the innocent verdict. I think he is screwed.

It seems to me that the amount of time that has passed was specifically so the government had a case. At least the government is doing more than the Commonwealth's Attorney for Surry County. (Yet again, the Surry County grand jury met this week. The CA wants to investigate more before he presents anything to the grand jury. Umm, yeah....right!)

They are expecting a circus at the court tomorrow. Blocking streets to traffic among other things. I am sure I will have my fill of the whole arraginment by tomorrow night.

If Jeffrey Skilling couldn't hire a good enough lawyer to get him out of trouble........I seriously doubt Michael Vick could.

To be fair, Vick has a LOT of advantages Skilling did not simply by being a pro athlete and a larger public figure (plus Skilling's attorneys botched several important issues, including "outing" his witness preparation consultant, etc) . . . but yeah, in general I agree. This is the type of case where a great attorney may not make any difference - bad facts make bad law, and all those platitudes.

Exactly . . in a Jury System NOTHING is 100% . .

I wonder what the potential penalty is for all of the charges against him. No offense to any animal lovers but Vick is getting this attention because he's famous. Charge him, try him, convict if necessary and let's move on.

Is it just me?

I believe it is a maximum sentence of six years if convicted.

I agree with this. Honestly though, Vick couldn't have picked a worse time to get into trouble. I believe the federal law against animal fighting was just passed in May. Vick is, I believe, only the 2nd or 3rd person to be charged with animal fighting on a large scale.

Reuter - In response to the turmoil surrounding Falcons start quarterback Michael Vick. The Director of Operations released an artist's rendition of the Atlanta Falcon's new logo. His explanation was that the Falcons organization is standing behind the enbattled star as he deal with an ongoing investigation in to allegations of dog fighting at his home in Virginia.

Vick at present has been asked to take a leave of absence so that he can concentrate on his legal woes.

It is unclear at present what Vick's future will be should he be cleared of all charges.



























http://mud.mm-a8.yimg.com/image/444207072

Don't you think the "powers that be" for the Falcon's organization had to find a way to get outta of a contract with him? Even if a major "animal fighting law" was passed, "they" KNEW Vick's weakness for this kind of "alternative enjoyment and sport"...

I saw a video of a dog fight on CNN and it was horrific. They had footage of dogs that had been rescued from fights, and so many of them had these awful wounds all over their faces from being bitten by other dogs. If he's guilty, he should get the maximum time possible, because this 'sport' is appallingly cruel. :mad:

What bothers me more is that they interviewed a schoolteahcer from Chicago, who said that they asked the kids (I think 2nd/3rd graders) if they'd been to a dogfight and so many of them raised their hands that the Chicago schools have had to start an education campaign to tell the kids why dog fighting is wrong. :(

My husband, who is a veterinarian, read the original indictment...

Let's just say when a FEDERAL GRAND JURY indicts you for this kind of crime, it is not a joke. They have a full, closed investigation that is ready to prosecute.

The actual footage seen on CNN is tame... There are other videos much worse.

What is sad is how can someone call themselves a dog lover and make these dogs hurt each other...

I separate the mice when they fight so that they don't cannibalize... And cannabalism is not kosher...

It just got worse for him...apparently his co-defendants are ratting him out saying that he participated in the killing of underperforming dogs by drowning, hanging and electrocuting them.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7...PHCP&GT1=10347


What a sick piece of crap. :mad:

When it rains, it pours!
 

As if Michael Vick didn't have enough trouble with the law, he was cited for not wearing a seatbelt in a car he was riding in Isle of Wight.

Here is the excerpt from the article: Ticket or Click It for Vick

Looks like he's going to plead guilty:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

It's a shame to see such talent wasted. I hope he never plays football (for money) again.

There is a "Shame of us" in this matter as well. One of the local PM drive time DJ's pointed out that Mr. Vick is getting a heavier book thrown at him than other celebrities who broke moral codes and laws involving people. Talking every combination of sex, drugs, A & B, guns et al.
And many of them are super-stars and poster boys.

All he could think of was that the dogs could not speak for themselves or act for themselves.

I saw the greatest editorial cartoon on Vick today, in a zine. Does anyone know of a cartoon site other than www.cagle.com?


Found it!

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/wp-conten...ickvarvel2.jpg

How a Police Dog, Troy the Dutch Shepherd, Led to Michael Vick's Downfall
One of the aspects of the Michael Vick dog fighting investigation that hasn't gotten much attention is how it all started. So let's explain: It all started with a dog named Troy.
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/...michael-vicks/

Good!

See Ya Vick!:mad:

Vick: I Found Jesus...

He was at The Walmart.:rolleyes:

I love that editorial cartoon, honey!

That said, I'm so ready for all this to be over with. I had hoped that once he entered a guilty plea, the media would kinda back off. Unfortunately, the reverse is true. I'm such a football fan that I'm afraid this will overshadow the whole season - both college and pro. And with Vick having played at Virginia Tech... that combined with April's tragedy, I feel bad for the Hokies. I hope they really do well this season. And not just because they're "America's Team," as Corso defined them, but because they deserve something to celebrate.

I'm 'bout fed up with people taking "full responsibility" - AFTER they lie to investigators, AFTER they're faced with the evidence, and AFTER they plead guilty. Gimme a break! Is that supposed to make him sound honorable?

He tried his best to weasel out of it, now - with his tail between his legs like one of his dogs, he's "taking full responsibility"? What a bunch of crap. He got caught, pure and simple. He's a criminal.

He called his actions "immature". I'd call them something else more descriptive of the horrible things he took part in, but not "immature". It's not like he wet his pants.

He's a disgusting excuse for a human being. I hope he gets the maximum penalty allowed by Federal law, and is further charged under state law.

I am walking MNFB on ESPN and they are showing Michael Vick showing his apology...

I don't think the Fed should make him go to jail. I think he should be monetarily punished and he do 1,000,000,000 hours of community service with ASPCA and PETA. Especially that which deals with cleaning out the cages with poop and making sure animals do not die.

Actually, that would be funny if he go to Animal Tech school where he has to clean out animal cages in research laboratories at Universities and Biotechs.

I couldn't find an article to link to, but a headline for a video on Yahoo! indicates that all but one of the 49 dogs are adoptable. Unfortunately, one was so aggressive that it wouldn't cooperate long enough for a complete exam; it will be euthanized.

I hope the 48 "adoptable" dogs find good homes.

Is it true that the fraternity that made the shirts, Theta Chi, has been kicked off the campus because of this? Or are they suspended?

They've been suspended. Here's a link to an article that focuses on the fallout of the controversial t-shirts.

What a joke. It's a T-Shirt.