KathyKD, why do you think that will be?

(I'm not just being contrary, but since I honestly never heard a women join a group because she liked the food or decorations unless she had absolutely nothing of merit to make a decision on, I can't figure out why eliminating the remaining "frills" will cause her to use deeper standards. I can totally see why it frees up the members to focus exclusively on the PNMs, which seems great, but it doesn't ensure that they will focus on the "right" things.)

Yes, yes, and YES to everything you said. I'm glad to see such a mature point of view from a PNM. :) Kudos!

I didn't say it forced them to have morals or to have higher standards, just that some of the outside forces, like how impressive their house seemed or how many girls were able to perform in a skit, or what kind of food they ate are eliminated. We were discussing that unfortunately, some young women ARE quite self-centered and petty, and a no-frills recruitment cuts down on that effect, and helps chapters with lower funds compete. I never said that it gives people better ways of thinking; it simply lets the sorority focus more on TALKING to the PNMs than on impressing them. :)

It's so weird to me to learn that people actually cared about the quality of the frills of groups during rush. My campus was so heavily tipped toward prior reputation, I can't imagine door chants making a difference.

ETA: thanks, KathyKD for your response.

That's another story--unfortunately, some are voted on, and can be forced into the duty by a chapter, too. :(

Sometimes at smaller schools, that is what gives a chapter the leg-up. Sad, but true. This is why so many chapters spend so much money on Recruitment, because they are attempting to undermine the rumors that the PNMs have heard on campus about each house. :(

hmmm
 

OK,

I will be the first to admit that I am a big girl and in a sorority at a very Greek school.
There are some factors that do affect this.
-I am a big Girl, but I am proportional (i.e. VERY curvy) with a defined jaw.
-The clothes I wear don't make bulges and keep clean lines (which is more than I can say for some "skinny" girls).
-Hyper active on campus(in a bunch of groups w/leadership).

The point is how you wear it!
Heck, I am usually the one getting in my guy friends at an *event* when I wear a low-cut shirt (brought to the front of the line).

If you saw me on campus, I would probably be wearing a polo w/dark jeans and heels.

Confidence in your own image of yourself makes all the difference in the world!
If the sister is fun and engaging (which is why she is probably your sister to begin with) than she should be talking to the girls.

As a note: If you are a bigger person, you need to wear the appropriate clothing. Spend the extra time looking for jeans that fit you (regardless of what brand name) and buy clothes with shape instead of just big.

I come from a family of bigger and *gifted* women and finding clothes that fit the top and bottom is hard, but it can be done! (I <3 stretch).

If the nationals wants to represent themselves with women who may not represent what the sisterhood means to that person, it could be a very hard decision. One option you may have is to do the work of coats and prep that is constantly going on (a few people are needed for that alone). If the new recruits are not people you would call sister, I would leave. You would know in a little over a week.

Besides, if you are a fun person it may just surprise you. Just because someone is pretty doesn't mean that they are vain and empty.

Welcome :p

Me, too!

Oh, I'm not from a small school.

There's a very strong tradition at many big campuses too. And tradition is often a function of reputation earned or unearned.

Frills, no frills, dress up, dress casually, I don't think you're ever going to really get people to consider what you want them to.

But you can make it less wasteful, and that's a positive end right there.

Exactly! Just think about some of the money these chapters waste on recruitment, when they could use the money for something worthwhile, or something that furthers their deeper purpose!

Well, since you don't know me from Adam, you wouldn't know. I already said that I didn't agree with what I'd observed but I was, like lyrelyre said, calling them as I saw them.

Rather than try to start something with an ad hominem attack, why don't you pm me if you have any issues with me, whoever you are?

She wasn't judging the sorority at all, she was simply commenting that others were likely to judge them. Stating that others are likely to be shallow does not make you shallow. She was stating what she felt was likely to happen.

now i know that none of us know this young woman, or her chapter, but i would tend to guess that looks were not the only thing the decision to ask her not to participate in recruitment was based on.

first,you can bet that each npc sorority headquarters closely monitored the depauw situation. noone wants to live through a similar situation.

second, if this young woman was the star rusher in her chapter, i believe that they would want her front and center, no matter her shape or size. the best rusher in the chapter i advise is a large young woman. i wanted this sister to rush the girls that the entire chapter had as rush crushes, because she has a wonderful personality and is a great conversationlist-she could talk the paint off a wall. i made sure that she preffed someone at every pref. party. everyone she rushed joined. i'm just sorry that she graduated in may!

Recognizing how something works isn't the same as liking how it works or agreeing with it.

What they said!:)

Doesn't that stink when that happens? I felt the same way when the sister that recruited ME graduated--she was a year older. Also, she happened to be a bigger girl, with a personality just as vivacious and big! The good thing is, hopefully some of the younger sisters learned from the sister you are talking about!!! I know I learned a lot from the particular lady of which I am speaking. She rocked (and still does)!!!

Let's drop the debate about whether rushees care about fat girls and whether you want superficial rushees in your chapter, and work from the following premise:

Hiding the fat girls in back will ensure more rushees pledge your chapter.

If you know that to be true, is it worth it to hurt a sister's feelings? My answer is yes. The only way for a small chapter to recover at a big school is to increase numbers.

I know I will get a lot of responses about quality over quantity, but you simply can not be a strong chapter if you are much smaller than the others. You don't have the money, you don't have the number of women volunteering their time as officers, and you don't have the presence on campus.

It's unfortunate, but it has to be done.

It doesn't HAVE to be done, at all. There are other avenues of dealing with the situation, aside from the concept of "quality over quantity." It's just plain cruel--can you imagine if it happened to YOU? What if you were the person who was overweight and hidden by the same sisters who professed to LOVE you? What if the sister had a medical condition that caused her to gain weight, or something else medically wrong? Or, what if the chapter that was suffering was YOURS? Think about it--I doubt you would view it in the same way...

Thank you! I pride myself on my maturity :)

But really, I think I am just speaking the truth. I hope that there are more people who will share similar views as I do when I go through recruitment (in just two more months!!!).

But I don't think this occurring is exclusive to struggling chapters or bigger campuses. Unfortunately, there are shallow chapters (or advisors) across the spectrum. I think it is sad that some chapters will hide members 'in the kitchen' based solely on superficial reasons. It is one thing if the member asks to be there - quite another to tell them they are not good enough.

If they are good enough to be your sister the other 51 weeks of the year they should be good enough to be your sister during recruitment.

Hear, hear!

I have to think that there's more to this than just the member's weight, i.e. perhaps she can't recruit very well. How many times do we personally remember or have read a story about a PNM that went to XYZ chapter and they had to carry the conversation? Thus had a bad impression of the chapter and cut it as result. I'm not in favor of having women of any size sit out, but I think it's important to put the best recruiters out there, especially if you're trying to help a sinking ship. There's a lot of other things to be done during recruitment besides just talking to PNMs.

Yes, there is, but from what we are gathering, she was asked not to COME to Recruitment at all! :(

Please share these other avenues with me; I'd love to hear what they are.

I've already stated numerous other ways to deal with this situation in my various posts, but I will humor you...

They could, instead of telling her not to attend:

-Train her one on one about what to talk about with PNMs, if she has bad social skills.
-Talk to her about what she feels she can best contribute to recruitment.
-Be supportive of the fact that she is their sister, and ENCOURAGE her to be with them throughout recruitment, not make her feel like she has to be "in the background."
;)

I'm not sure that the premise can actually be accepted period.* I'm willing to go along with the idea that it's in the interest of the chapter to manipulate the superficial aspects of recruitment to some degree, but the ill-will within the chapter such a move will create with the member and her authentic friends will counteract any "appearance" based benefits.

I agree that chapters are better taking full new member classes with some girls who weren't rush crushes rather than taking only a few new members who they worshiped and not making quota. When you don't make quota, no one thinks "well they only took the top girls they wanted": people think, "they couldn't find enough girls who liked them."

But being mean to current members about appearance won't necessarily get you more PNMs in the real world.

*I draw the line of what's unacceptable long before we're trying to hide fat people, but even if I didn't: it just wouldn't work from a pragmatic point of view. Your chapter has a reputation that exists before recruitment. If you have a number of overweight members, these members are seen in letters all the time on campus. If your group is small and has several overweight members, members having to double rush because you're hiding other people will cause more problems and make you seem even smaller.

Absolutely.

But valuing her membership doesn't mean she has to star in the skit if she can't act or rush every party every round if she's super shy. Nor would it mean that you needed to put a less that flattering picture in the recruitment guide. Play to the strengths of the group for what you know to be a superficial process.

Your first point has nothing to do with the situation as given. I am assuming here that the problem is appearance and nothing else.

To your second point, I agree that it should be handled delicately, and you should ask her to be in the kitchen or something instead of telling her not to show up. There is no reason to be totally mean about it, but girls aren't stupid, and if you hide them, they know why.

And your third point is not specific enough for me to understand what you mean. You are saying they should go ahead and let her rush?

Let's say that hiding the bigger girls doesn't change the number of rushers, because they are doing jobs that need to be done. It can be pragmatic in that case.

And that's just it: you will draw the line at a different place than I, because you had a different undergraduate experience, and we both differ from the OP, etc. There are schools where the chapters must compete for PNM's, and in order to survive, they must do the things that appeal to PNM's.

I never said that. Please re-read my post and you will see I said some women are overweight and dress ir well and you would never notice.


But as everyone has said, I am not totally convinced this girl was REALLY asked not to come back because of her weight. It seems like a good excuse - like the race card. only now you can play the weight card :rolleyes:

A rusher who is super shy may be off-putting to the one PNM she is rushing, but a rusher who is unattractive may be off-putting to every PNM who can see her.

I wish it weren't true as much as anyone, but small chapters have to do what they must to survive.

I understand that groups need to do what they can to survive and I'm alway cautious about condemning a group for how they handle a problem that other groups address with cuts in membership selection, but I'm actually more surprised that you think it would work than that people would do it if it did.

I'm also starting to think that you mean a freak show level of unattractiveness rather than simply being less than ideal. At the point that someone is turning people off the group from across the room, maybe we're not talking about the same thing.

ETA: I'm really thinking about it. I've never known a member (or a severely limited number of members) who was so different from the rest of the group in appearance that you could "hide" her or them and gain a big advantage. Describe what we're talking about here DBB. I'm not going to judge you for it, I promise.

You make me want to stab my eyes out with your superficial bullshit.

BTW, in my experience, the kitchen members were from the largest chapters. Yes, I have met some of them...

To me, I would rather have 30 truly exceptional SISTERS than 300 women joined by name only.

But what if having these 30 exceptional sisters prevents you from having 70 more exceptional sisters?

I agree totally with your statement, and I tried to make that point above. I wish every chapter on every campus could totally be themselves, and make quota doing so, but that just isn't the case.

Hahaha, I am not going to post pics or anything, but let's say you have a chapter of 30 and 2 women are fairly overweight. I know they may be great girls, but those two women would be enough, on some campuses, to earn you the reputation of "the fat sorority".

You bring up a whole separate issue, though. Is it better to not bid these women at all than to bid them and then ask them to be your computer committee the following year?

That's fine, but I certainly hope you don't need 50 women paying rent to keep your chapter house. Some of us do.

If the appearance of the current sisters is the only reason 70 won't join, it's hard to accept that the 70 would be more exceptional, I suspect.

We all want fun, social chapters (into which attractiveness figures; let's be honest), but we don't want a sisterhood based only on physical attractiveness.

Been there done that. Chose not to recruit solely for the sake of having warm bodies to keep the house operational.