A new spin on the debate....Russell Simmons vs Obama
 

Rap Mogul Takes On Obama
Russell Simmons Said the Presidential Candidate Should Not Criticize 'Poets' for Slurs

By JAKE TAPPER and JERRY TULLY

April 16, 2007 — Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., found himself criticized Monday by one of rap and hip-hop's leading producers, Def Jam Records co-founder Russell Simmons, who challenged the presidential candidate to stop criticizing rappers' lyrics and start working to improve the urban-American world that inspires them.

"My response to Sen. Obama is that you have to talk about the poverty and ignorance that creates such a climate that the poets can talk like that," Simmons told ABC News. "And all the politicians owe them an education and an opportunity for a better life — and maybe they'll say something better."

Obama, the first presidential candidate to call for shock jock Don Imus to be fired for his racist comments about the Rutgers University women's basketball team, has said it's troublesome to condemn Imus' "nappy-headed hos" slur without addressing similar language used by rap and hip-hop musicians.

At a fundraising dinner for the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus in Columbia, S.C., Friday, Obama said, "We've got to admit to ourselves, that it was not the first time that we heard the word 'ho.' Turn on the radio station. There are a whole lot of songs that use the same language … We've been permitting it in our homes, and in our schools and on iPods."

Read the rest of the article here

Russell Simmons needs to sit down somewhere.

russy doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him.

I was watching Oprah yesterday and he kept insisting on calling these rappers artists and poets, and I am sorry but not all of them are. And the ubiquity of this derogatory language in a rap song is not explained away by the fact that they are poets holding up a mirror that reflects their experience. If they are poets 1) they should have a greater command of language so that they do not use the same language over and over again; 2)they should be conscious of the way that they are using language (and I just don't see that kind of consciousness reflected in much of this music); 3) there should be more depth to the experience that they mirror; Our communities are not one-dimensional filled with loose moraled women and men, drugs, and bling. There is much more going on there, and a poet should be able to capture these things.

I agree that we need to address the conditions that some of these artists rap about, but at the same time there are a lot of other artists that don't use that kind of language and still manage to communicate a message and a truth about their experience.

My white opinion is that nobody should tell them what to say or how to say it. The problem obviously comes not with what they say, but how society chooses to glorify it.

I fully agree- and that is why none of us in the black community can stop them.

We have no right to tell them what to say/express.

We are not the primary consumers of their work, so our lack of monetary support has no effect on them whatsoever (as it is I doubt many people who actually buy hip-hop in the "community" are paying more than 5 bucks at the bootleg man ANYWAY, we are currently not supporting them with our money as it is).

Historically, when a black leader (ha ha) has offered any censure, their sales have gone up.

The only protests that I've seen that I thought were in any way significant were those like the Spelman women's refusal to have Nelly come speak on their campus. But even that did not affect his overall popularity in the slightes, it just sent a clear message to the few people who were payign attention (I only read about it on gc).

So I guess I just don't understand what the fabled "black community" is supposed to do next.

I don't think it matters as to "who" purchases the most of this music because those dollars in no way compare to the amount of money that we spend on the consumer goods of their record label's parent company. Many of the labels that specializes in the artist with degrading lyrics are owned by diversified companies that also own other business ventures such as clothing lines, alcohol, restaurants, etc.

Since we are the largest group of consumer goods (clothing, cars, etc.), we can hit their sponsors in the pocketbook. The benefactors extend well beyond the record label, but goes into a host of other areas such as clothing, vehicles, etc. If anything else, we KNOW that there is power in the dollar.

The sales of Sony's playstation well exceed the record sales of a rap artist on one of their record labels. I guarentee that if we boycotted buying their products (playstation) because they chose to produce these types of artist on their recod labels, then something would happen.

Things like that can work (Pepsi did drop Ludacris) and then they can backfire(Body Count by Ice-T) making the artists into pop culture/free speech icons. The companies will find another less public way to make money through the artist that just got all that nice free publicity.

I dunno, maybe I am just extremely cynical about the ability of any protests to stop America's corporate tastemakers.

Which may just be that the corporations stop pressuring those people to produce certain kind of music. There is another thread where we discuss this stagnation in mainstream hip-hop, which is the product of the corporations that market and produce the music.
I think folks should be able to say whatever they want to say, but they should be prepared to accept the consequences of that language, whatever those consequences might be. However, I certainly don't have to listen to it, support it, or endorse it, and please, don't try and sell it to me as poetry--like Russell Simmons is trying to.

Well, I don't think the black community should "do" anything. My comments on a potential double standard aside, I personally am not that concerned with the music itself.

However, regardless of consumerism, I think that significant segment of black culture does glorify some of the "statuses" in rap music. Thats where the problem lies (white people do it to, but I think its more pervasive in the black community), the ideal situation is if people could enjoy rap, but not let its message have such a profound impact on popular culture.

I'm not really that concerned with the degradation of women/violence aspect of rap (I mean, I don't like it, but I haven't personally seen any effects of it). What I do see though, is simply irresponsible living. Its not just rap, its popular culture at large, but the rap "culture", if you will, makes a substantial contribution to it.

Shinerbock, if your issue is with "the lifestyle of excess", rap culture HARDLY makes a substantial contribution to it. Does it contribute to it - yes, but its not the only influential factor. It didn't in the 80's and it doesn't now. If anything, rap (as well as other entertainers) are trendsetters - which can change in an instant.

What contributes to it now is the fact that we have 24/7 coverage of what I like to call "the hollywood lifestyle" and the fact that corporations/advertisers convince us that it is possible for regular people to live like Paris Hilton (or insert the name of the latest celeb ). They convince us that we you can and should have the $500 sunglasses, the Prada bag, drive the Mercedes E-Class and wear the designer clothes all on a teacher's salary. That lifestyle isn't something that is not attainable anymore, but is available to every regular person nowadays - so go for it.

...and because we are saturated with the celebrity lifestyle/news each and everyday, most people swallow the bait.

It's like the "keeping up with the jones" mentality but flashier.

I don't think its insignificant at all, I think rap has plenty to do with that, especially among guys. I think theres a pretty significant blending of rap and Hollywood, and frankly most guys aren't out there going "man, I wanna be a balla like Ryan Phillipe". Also, that culture has blended even more so with sports than Hollywood. With girls, I definitely think you're right, though, about Hollywood.

I know I don't see everything that goes on in the country, but I just don't see as many white people saying "damn i gotta be like Colin Ferrell" and drinking what he does and dressing like he dresses. I'm absolutely positive it happens, but from my perspective, I see a whole lot more black people emulating the rap/sports lifestyle than I do white people trying to live up to Hollywood standards. As a disclaimer, I think part of the reason behind this is that the lavish lifestyles that black men try to emulate are often more apparent. I can't always spot Ferragamo, but I can easily identify escalades with chrome.

I live/work in a predominately white environment and I know PLENTY of people that try to live the "hollywood lifestyle" on their paycheck. It as commonplace as air.

Anyway, we could discuss our personal experiences all day, but I feel its really an insignificant tangent.

I don't doubt that they do. My only contention with you is regarding your opinion that the rap culture is insignificant when it pertains to popular culture and that type of irresponsibility.

The "American Dream" is all about excess. That's why the average American is a paycheck from bankruptcy or poverty. People confuse income with wealth and assume that a middle to upper middle class income means something. Then you also have a large percentage of the population that is working poor or at the poverty line.

So if white people want to sit around talking about the black community and this supposed culture that the rap industry is fueling, remember that all forms of entertainment (literature, music, art...) are the result of the society that breeds it. Every type of music (in various societies in this world) has misogyny and excess. It's just manifested differently. That's not to say there isn't room for change, but the black community has been arguing change long before C. Delores Tucker took on hip hop. So spare us the song and dance, white people and easily-swayed black people.

As for the childish "you all do it, so why look at us for doing it" game, the ever-so-wonderful Tim Wise has an excellent piece out in which he repeats everything that blacks have been saying for years. But of course since Wise is a white man, people will assume he's unemotional and learned enough to be paid attention:
http://blog.qusan.com/2007/04/tim-wi...n-on-imus.html

Read the "article", laughable, at best.

The best thing to take away from this blog is that white people, and most people, shouldn't use the "but you do it too" response in such situations. Instead, when the Imus thing happened, and parts of the black community responded like they did, the white community should have said "well, that was a rude comment, but I don't really give a sh*t." Most probably felt like that, but were too busy trying to point out that "one of my really good friends is black" to say anything.

Hmm, I think that the article was right on point, especially "So in the ultimate irony, it is white buyers who make that kind of rap profitable...: :cool:

Cool.

As long as you read it.

Well, whats the other part of the formula for irony here? White buyers make rap profitable so therefore its ironic that ______________? That white people point out what they see as a double standard when it comes to black community reaction? I don't see how that fits. That white people blame the black community for things like the Imus debacle? I've heard very few white people say things like that, so I certainly don't see that it would be the "ultimate irony." In fact, on a scale of irony, I'd probably give it, generously, a 3/10.

...this is a topic.

Not really, double standards regarding how BLACK PEOPLE react to situations like this have absolutely nothing to do with whether white people purchase a majority of the rap music in this country.

Okay, WHITE PERSON. ;)

LOL, some stuff is just hilarious.

I prefer off-white.