They (him and Sid Rosenberg) were talking about the Tennessee vs. Rutgers women's basketball Final.

Imus: That's some rough girls from Rutgers...man....they got tattoos and....
Rosenberg:....some hardcore hoes....
Imus...haha...some nappy headed hoes there, haha, i'm tellin' ya......and uhhh....the girls from Tennessee....they all looked cute ya know?

Then they talked about how it was a Spike Lee type thing, the Jigaboos vs. the Wannabees. I think he was referencing Do The Right Thing. Then Rosenberg said that the women looked more like the Toronto Raptors or something like that.

He was actually referencing School Days in which Spike Lee ripped the veil off colorism (and many other issues) in the black community. The referenced scene in particular shows the "fight" (I use the term loosely because its a dance number set to music) between the dark skinned ladies with naturally kinky, coily (read nappy) hair and the lighter ladies
(many of who were of mixed race) with chemically relaxed or naturally straight hair. The "Jigaboos" were arguably considered to be "ugly" and the lighter skinned women were "pretty," but called "Wannabees" as an insult, because they arguably "wanted to be white."

The Spike Lee/Wannabee/Jiggaboo commentary between Imus and the producer which followed the "hard core hoes [and] nappy headed hoes" comments essentially underscored that the duo's previous statements that the Tennessee team (which had more white women) were pretty and dainty, while the Rutgers team (predominately black) were unattractive, "hard core," Jiggaboos.

ETA insert "nappy" and make plain the hair difference and why, although many AfAms don't find the word "nappy" on its face to be negative (this one included), its not a far stretch to argue that it can be so made negative when used in a demeaning way because it has been before.

If it is used as a value judgment, yes.

Yes, especially when there may be a perceived hair texture and complexion difference between the two groups of women. That's where the "jiggaboo" reference comes from.


It can be if we look at the history of the "jezebel" and how black women were either over sexualized by the media or made asexual through the "mammy" image.

But there are more obvious sexist overtones for many people, which is why gender groups have gotten involved.

Where have people been that they haven't heard rappers criticized?

Rappers have been criticized for their lyrics for over a decade. People can't make an argument like that if they've been living under a rock.

More than that, artists can say whatever they want on an album as long as they have parental advisory labels. But our airwaves are even more closely monitored for content, which is why "hoes" and other negative words are often censored. Imus' show didn't receive that same censoring because it is a live show (most of the time) so there was no way to do the quality control thing. Imus would've been his own quality controller if he wasn't trying to be so controversial.

Well considering that I (meaning Jubilance) don't like it when rappers do it, I (meaning Jubilance) don't have a double standard.

The media and everyone else making such a huge issue about Imus do have a double standard.

The companies who advertise with stations which play the offending music also seem to have a double standard. Heck.. NBC itself owns some of those companies, but I don't see Sharpton and company bothering to do/say anything.

While you yourself may not be guilty of holding these folks to a double standard, there's little doubt that most folks do.

How many of y'all bitching about these artists actually own the albums of those artists knowing full well what the lyrics are?

True, but it is more than one sided!

Imus is an idiot that no one will dispute, but when this becomes the biggest thing in American History at the moment is getting over board. Front page news in both or all types of Media.:eek:

Now tell me that Sharpton and Jackson are not the same types of idiots who spout the same thing except for the Blacks?

These two people are two of the most Racist people that I have seen!:mad:

They profess that they are doing good, but how much money do they make?

Oh, Jessie with his love child and paying it from His Rainbow Coalition?

How soon some forget!:o

I'm not really directing this at you, just using your statement as an example.

The fact that a person doesn't like when rappers do it is a bit different from protesting when someone else does it. That could still be a double standard obviously. This isn't directed at you because a) I don't know if you're really protesting Imus and b) Maybe you do protest rap, but I think some people are quick to say "well its not ok for the hip hop community either", yet they're certainly not doing anything about it. I've seen several interviews with Jackson and Sharpton in recent days, and the rap question has been posed to them. Now, obviously I'm not that in touch with the happenings of the two, but I don't see them protesting and being outraged regarding rap music. Both have said that saying these controversial things aren't acceptable for black people either, but their actions don't reflect this (at least compared with their outrage over events like the Imus debacle).

I've really tried not to get into the double-standard debate because I don't think it wins arguments. Many times you're just conceding your position and saying "well, you do it too." However, I do think its a valid point to make (that there is a double-standard), its just not a way to win this argument.

This is not racial in terms of "black vs. white", it was more in reference of skin complexions/tones. As macallan25 said, Imus and his producers continued on with the commentary further and made the distinction between good-looking woman being "light-skinned" vs. "darker skinned". Specifically the center from Tennessee is a light-skinned af.-american, which also goes back to the "jigaboos vs. wannabees" (from School Daze, which was about prejudice based upon skin complexions) and his producer did reply "do the right thing" afterwards. So essentially, the lighter you are, the cuter. It is not simply because someone was called nappy-headed that there are racial undertones. Unfortunately, most of this has been portrayed as being restricted to the "nappy-headed hoes" comment.

I have a problem with the entire conversation and how it was conducted because this simply began as commenting that the women from Tennessee beat the women from Rutgers in the NCAA finals the previous evening. I do not understand how it was necessary in discussing the game to bring up appearances and to call them "hoes" and make any comments about race. None of those comments have anything to do with it being a good game between two teams and one beating the other.

Unfortunately, Don Imus does have an extremely large following, he has a morning show that is not only on tv and a huge network (MSNBC) that people do give credence as a fact-worthy news source, it is also on radio. Majority of presidential candidates feel that it is important to go to his talk show as one of the main stopping places when running for office. Therefore, this is not a man who no one knew of until he made this little comment that was blown out-of-control and now will receive more publicity than ever. He is viewed by many as a credible newscaster.

I do want him to be fired, because I believe that when you are in certain positions, you have a certain level of accountability. I have problems with Al Sharpton and what he does and says, does he have a national radio show being broadcasted simultaneously on radio and one of the 3 major cable news stations? No, and if he did and was allowed to say prejudicial/racist/sexist things, would I feel he should be fired? Absolutely!

Also, the other reason, I believe that Imus should be fired is that he never apologized, he simply excused the fact that this is a different time period where certain comments are not allowed and if this were a different day and time, it would be different.

That assertion is a load of complete crap. Absolutely ridiculous. Tennessee had 3 white girls on their 11 woman roster....one of which started. The others barely played. Rutgers has two white girls on their 10 woman roster.......one of which also started.

http://utladyvols.cstv.com/sports/w-...askbl-mtt.html
http://scarletknights.com/basketball...oster-alph.asp

Don't turn this into some "He said good things about Tennesse because they were mainly white" bullshit.

OK - so am I safe in assuming that we're taking "nappy" as a judgment of more than just attractiveness here?

If not, is attractiveness really a 'value judgment' in the traditional sense of the term?

This makes perfect sense, and I really didn't even consider that aspect before I asked the question, to be honest. Well put.

Doesn't this create a difficult situation wherein any sexualized image of black women can be construed as supporting one of these disparate portrayals (based, obviously, on whether one sees the portrayal as more or less sexual than the individual would expect)?

Actually, Sharpton does have a national radio show - it's a daily show, in syndication.

Just an FYI, I don't think it changes anything in your post.

No, I know, but I meant that his radio show isn't on both there (the radio waves) and CNN, MSNBC, etc. Radio truly allows for free speech because it can be solely based upon one's opinion, whether you agree or not. Sorry for not being clear enough.

Wasn't turning it into that at all. Tennessee won the game after all- they, as well as Rutgers in my opinion (just for getting there), deserved to have good things said about them, be they white or black.

Now as the post immediately prior to your post demonstrates, colorism was at play.

None of the women deserved to be called hoes; nappy, hard-core or otherwise (unless of course they knew something about these ladies' prostitution habits that I don't). That is actually my bigger issue with all of this. I honestly, don't believe Imus even truly knew what "nappy-headed" meant- I think he heard it somewhere (maybe on BET which I've boycotted for years) and like a 3 yr old kid repeated it. Because why would anyone with the hair Imus has knowingly and purposefully talk about another's?

Now, I wonder why rappers have problems?

Is it because they are racist with their songs, is it becaus they s**k, or because they seem to get into more troubles having guns and beating up people or shooting them?

Why, because they are role models, or have money now and cannot handle it?

Bling, Bling, Big fancy cars and homes? Are they still thugs?:(

No.

None of these images are expected to be completely removed. We are asking for balance.

I understand them better than I understand you.

Where have some of you been for the past, almost 20 years? There's been a movement against "gangsta rap" and mysogyny in hip hop for years.

Many of the people who are voicing their opposition to Imus' comments have also been outspoken about other forms of racism and sexism in the media. That includes Al Sharpton.

---->we are here<------ It's wrong no matter who says it.

I hope you get a nose bleed soon..........that won't stop.

Al Sharpton speaks out a lot of things. However, when a racist speaks out against racism, people might not listen. Thats a different topic though.

My point was that these black "leaders" if you want to call them that, don't have the fervor regarding rap and actions in the black community that they have when it comes to incidents like this. To say they do is simply untrue.

Where are they now regarding the Duke case? If they've said anything, I sure haven't heard it.

That's what civil rights activists do.

Again, I don't know where you've been the past decade or more. He and other outspoken people for social equality have a lot of fervor regarding rap music. Just because you haven't read or heard about it personally means nothing.

ETA: Al Sharpton works with the Hip Hop Summit regarding negative images in hip hop and the recent violence involving G-Unit member Tony Yayo. He was also criticized for writing to the FCC about violence in rap in 2005.

And just because you say him and others have gone after rap music with the same fervor personally means nothing.

I've seen Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson both dodge or hesitate to condemn this sort of thing in rap music. I don't know where you've been for the past 3 days.

Well Al Sharpton's stance on hip hop is out there. I guess that's a figment of our imaginations and means nothing, too.

I commend Sharpton and Jackson for not allowing people to interrogate them and turn this issue around. Imus' apology means that he knew he was wrong or at least cared enough to pretend that he was wrong. If it was all about "rappers can say it, what's the big deal" then he shouldn't have apologized and instead told the complainers to choke on it.

In the end, MSNBC and the corporate sponsors have spoken. I really liked Imus at first and was blowing this whole thing off. But now I'm seeing the issue for what it really is and calling a spade a spade.

Imus should stop kissing Al Sharpton's ring
 

Imus should apologize to the Rutgers women — and those women alone — send them flowers, and stop kissing Al Sharpton's ring.

This wasn't an insult to all mankind, and certainly not an insult to Al Sharpton. Now, if Imus had called the basketball players "fat, race-baiting black men with clownish hairstyles," well, then perhaps Sharpton would be owed an apology.

more of this week's column in the LAU forum.

Lambda Alpha Upsilon

According to the transcript I read, it wasn't Rosenberg. This was posted on the first page of this thread:

MSNBC has pulled his simulcast from their TV network since the advertisers are pulling out.

I agree that what he said was rude and out of line, but I've heard worse from others. I did think to myself, when I heard that GM had pulled their advertising from his show, that I am pretty sure that GM advertises on the rap stations in Detroit who play the songs that are just as offensive. I do see that as a double standard.

I think all the media attention makes it worse. I also just read that a Pennsylvania DJ was fired this morning for having a contest that involved people calling in and saying "I'm a nappy headed ho". I've not been a fan of shock jocks for a long time, so it wouldn't bother me a bit if they all got fired, but I've definitely heard Howard Stern say worse things and NOT get fired.

Imus will probably end up on Sirius now...

Answering questions about your own hypocrisy isn't the same as allowing someone else to turn the situation around.

It seems accountability only applies to some. That being said, I'm going to leave the double standard issue alone.

My mistake......I just watched the clip on youtube and the call in gues was Rosenberg.....I just figured it was him.

Some interesting POV's from around the Nation's Op-Ed sections:
http://cagle.com/news/ImusBigMouth/
http://cagle.com/news/ImusBigMouth/


Lastest News links:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...ers/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,265441,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17999196/

I personally don't believe that many, if any at all, white adults can honestly say they do not know the difference between an offensive comment and one that is not. I think it's a total cop-out for any adults to say they should be allowed to use offensive language just because others may say it.

I believe that white people who use offensive language and then use rap/black people as a reason for it are just making excuses. Don't worry about why black people/females use that language. Just know that you can't. Leave that other issue for the black people to deal with. Since when did white people become so concerned with the language that blacks use toward each other?

This 'double standard' talk is pure nonsense to me.

For what it's worth, Steve Capus, President of NBC News, claims that the decision to drop Imus was not based on revenue (loss of advertising), but rather to protect the reputation of NBC News.

That could be true.

We'll see what CBS, the owner of the Imus show, decides to do beyond a suspension.

Your comment about Sirius has a certain ring of probability.

I think Stern WAS fired by NBC in the early 90's, but then got picked up by another network and made 5x the money NBC was paying him. I think this is all going to play out benefiting Imus in the end, a week ago most people in America never heard of the guy and now he's a household name.

I'm sorry I am still trying to figure out how Imus even knows what a ho who give head that is nappy? I'm so lost with this issue. :confused:

And most of what you all are saying, I think he belittled these women because he is a "little man" and he does not have the dick strength to ride these "jiggaboos" on the Rutgers Women's Basketball Team. :rolleyes: And does he really ball? And Vitamin V won't work for his "little white wrinkled assed butt" even if he was found to be attractive by some cracky taled ho who is very happy to be nappy. Then when does he use his "stuh"--wait, more like why?

And MSNBC justified a reason to get rid of him... That's seems rather harsh and foul. But they allowed this hype to fester only because they want someone new, young and fresh in the game... And it ain't gonna be a sistah runnin' a show. Hayle they cain't stand Oprah anymore...

Personally, I think homey is like a Ken Barbie Doll.

Stern was fired a few times in a few different cities but always ended up back on the airwaves somehow. When the FCC put too much pressure on him, he went to Sirius and, from what I can gather, that put Sirius on the map. Although, I'm sure people said this when cable TV was first getting popular, I just can't see paying for radio personally... but that's me. I listen to the radio on my way to work and sometimes on my way home. Usually on my way home, I listen to one of the CDs I've made from Itunes.

Dale, when did you join Lambda Alpha Upsilon?

If you aren't a member, it's really really offensive to sign your posts with their letters.

But back to the topic - I fell asleep w/ MSNBC on and woke up to "Breaking News: Imus Out" over and over.

I guess it would actually matter if MSNBC was actually watched by, um, people that aren't asleep.

Music industry people are not used as an excuse, just an illustration of the double standard.

I never thought I'd see such a great demonstration of the double standard. BS. Either condemn all of it or none of it. If the language is that offensive, it should be offensive when uttered by anyone, regardless of the source.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, definitely - and while we're at it, we can leave poverty issues to the poor, hunger issues to the starving, etc. We're definitely not all in this together, when it comes to fighting off century-old stereotypes and embedded racial issues.

It's not so much that I want to be able to call black women "nappy hoes" - honestly, it should be readily apparent that I already can, should I so choose to deal with the consequences - and I couldn't care less about "double standard" issues, as I think it's a semiotic crutch for avoiding the conversation (for the most part).

However, framing the point like you did is just bizarre - it's almost insulting to any intelligent adult who actually wants to go beyond the surface of racial issues in America. To say "just know you can't" is akin to throwing your hands up and quitting, to my mind.

Because there isn't one.

Most adults aren't that intelligent and certainly not intelligent enough to discuss racism in America as more than "hurt feelings" and "bad people saying bad things." Americans generally have a kindergartener's understanding of social issues. They still believe that the "isms" aren't about structure and power but are about diversity training and educating against bigotry. Then they wonder why the "isms" still exist eventhough so many people "seem so nice and tolerant of others."

So saying "just know you can't" is the most that many of us will say when we're faced with people who won't get it no matter how much we say. Then we move on to focus on the issue of structure and power that goes beyond the actions of individuals who may or may not be bigots.

As most of us have. But just because people are murdered doesn't mean that violent crimes like rape and assault should be ignored.

The "nappyheaded hoe" part was bad enough but he had to go the extra mile with his "jiggaboo vs. wannabe" reference. That shows that he not only knows what he was saying but that he wanted to make sure it was controversial enough to make some people laugh and others cringe.