I never give money to anybody on the streets for anything. If they are hungy, and I have the time and money to spare, I'll duck into the nearest fast food joint and get em a combo meal. but I dont give money. Ever. Besides, I donate clothes and canned foods and such to must ministries and salvation army and places like that. I paticipate in varous causes and I think I more than do my fair share of trying to be helpful in society. But I agree with Kevin for the most part, I havent read the whole thread yet - I have to say I was shocked at how many of you attacked him though.

pride's a BS excuse. It amazes me how many people I still see panhandling in Atlanta when a law was passed saying they couldnt. There's this one guy I pass by, every single day...and yes, he has no legs, he's in a wheelchair. Do I give him money? Nope. And I never will. I've heard stories about the GaTech students who's part time job during the holidays was panhandling...who ended up with more money than I ever knew what to do with.

Yep, I'm cynical. but...I do other things to help out society. Giving money to people on the streets is not one of them.

Considering that he (the legless guy) qualifies for 100% disability and other public assistance and is likely receiving the same, I think that's a good move. Yeah, the pride thing is a dumb excuse. If they have no problem walking up to strangers who will likely reject their offer and probably even be disrespectful, I don't see how accepting public benefit being actually offered to them is a bigger hit to the 'pride.' That's just silly.

Kevin, 20 years ago I probably thought more like you do. Experience over those 20 years has brought me to a different place. I'm not saying you'll end up where I am when you've "learned better" -- that would be presumptuous of me. Just saying that my experience has led me to find that there's a lot of grey out there.

And I think you are quite right that just giving someone money is not necessarily compassionate. Making sure they have food certainly can be, though.

One thought though: Is "homeless" here being used to to refer to all homeless people -- including those who are working and trying to take advantage of programs that will really help them, or is it limited just to the those who beg on the streets? If it's the latter, then "beggars" might be the more accurate term. When I hear "homeless," I think not only of the beggars; I also think of the families that my church and other churches take turns providing shelter, food and transportation for, who are trying and working or going to school but who have nowhere to live. Perhaps confusion about which homeless people are the subject of this thread is what has brought on some of the more heated responses in this thread.

I probably should have used the word "panhandlers" It would have been a far more accurate descriptor. My apologies for the extremely imprecise language.

That's the word I couldn't think of when I came up with "beggars." Thanks.

Well, it does vary from city to city- I will grant you that. Here in Austin rents are so high and there is such a large supply of college students willing to work part or full time at a low wage, that it is very easy to find yourself homeless- even if you do have a job.

As for the rest, again I see your point- but the sad fact is that there are always droves of people willing to take advantage of an "easy road". For every panhandler who doesn't need it, there must be some homeless person who refuses to beg for change.

But I don't try to play detective anymore- God can sort us all out later, I am too busy to try and do his job too :)

If someone asks for money, if I have change on me and if I feel like giving it away- I will do so freely. It is not true charity if I try to judge the recipient in the process.

Your instinctive reaction of annoyance/disgust is one I know well. I feel the same sometimes. At some level I think it might be one of our versions of that natural reaction in any living creature to repel the weak of another species for a variety of reasons.

But don't let it make you crazy man. Where I live, you will find panhandlers on every major freeway intersection once you get out of the neighborhoods since the beggars know they can get lots of money up here, and if you hit the Drag over by campus you will get asked for money at least 3-4 times if you walk the full 8 blocks.

At some point you have to tune it out, but I do for the most part try to smile and say I have nothing to offer. It just seems to make the world colder to disregard them and pretend they do not exist. Feeling invisible must surely be one of the worst sides of having "fallen off the train".

EE -- I think you are reading a lot into my feelings on the matter.

I live in the city where the Enron collapse occured. The former employees (who lost their whole life savings) ended up on the street and in mental institutions. Just like Tld(?) said, your economical comfort zone can be taken away from you in an instant. There were literally thousands of people who were effected by this and we saw our homeless numbers soar. Kevin, you have no idea what their story is. Yes, there are lots of them that just want to do drugs and drink and that's how they got to this position in life. But there are a lot of people out there who are effected by downsizing and corporate collapses. Family can only help so much. But don't put them all in one box. Each one has their own story. They are human just like us.

No offense dude, but you are the one with a 6 page thread on this and a reply to every post. It is hard not to assume that this is something you are really letting get to you.

Again, you're assuming this. Most of this thread has been spent responding to personal attacks and other sorts of challenges. I generally respond to things like that. If it takes a few posts to do so, so be it.

I don't have to--not all homeless have an able body/mind. So, those are the ones who I will disagree on behalf of.

Then they're eligible for benefits.

If you are not of sound mind, then there is a good chance you have no idea what you are eligible for and are not educated enough to even go find out. Instead, you may very well spend your days hiding, afraid of being locked up in a "crazy house" or walking up and down the streets talking to people no one else see, as do several homeless men who live in my neighborhood. They never ask a single person for change--in fact, I've never seen them speak to anyone who was visible. It's only these extreme cases who I'm referring to. As for the others, they can be debated about by the rest of the board.

I know I'm gonna get reamed for this, but seriously - how is this MY problem? If you dont care enough to try to find out, crazy or not, why should I bend over backwards to help you? ANYBODY who ever paid attention to anything in society would know that there a ways to pursue getting help. If you're eligible for benefits - benefits that are paid for by tax dollars (so yes, we all contribute) then you need to be conscious enough to do something about it, rather than begging me for more money.

Not to "ream" you, but not necessarily. I said "Not educated enough." I can't imagine that everyone on the streets knows about the acts and laws that have been passed for their benefit (ie, those who've never been to school, couldn't get into a shelter/program, etc.). These are people who everyone avoids, especially if they aren't even always fully conscious of their surroundings. Who actually sits a homeless person down and explains procedures to get on disability, if they're too far gone mentally or too illiterate to understand it? I didn't say anything about those who "Don't care enough." Two completely different groups of people, but as applied to the latter, I definitely agree.

okay, so if they are so bad off that they cant be conscious of their surroundings, again, how is that my problem? You can lead a horse to water, but you cant force it to drink....how am I supposed to miraculously change these peoples lives???

You know, Kevin, i was at a fast food joint a few days ago, and this guy bumped into me, I turned, looked, smiled, and turned back to what I was doing (becuase honestly, he looked kinda creepy and scared me). I walked away from the counter and he followed me "Hi how are you doing" he said to me, in a voice so low I could barely hear him. I looked at him quizzically, and he kept talking, again, so low that I couldnt understand him. I said "Excuse me?" and he started to talk again...again, too soft for me to hear. At that point, i rolled my eyes and walked away muttering under my breath about how if you're gonna talk to me, look me in the eye and say what you need to say, dont stare off in space and expect me to help you out when you cant even speak up where i can understand what the hell it is you're asking.

Oh, I might add, he had 2 tear drop tattoos on his face. Yeah, I was TOTALLY comfortable helping him out with WHATEVER it might have been he was asking for.

CG - back to the point at hand- I'm sorry these people arent educated. but what the heck am I supposed to do to change that?

:rolleyes: The fact is he probably spoke softly because most people are uncomfortable with him and act like he's invisible so they don't have to think about his existence.
You're not supposed to "do anything" about it, although if you could volunteer for an organization that helps the homeless. Bottom line, no matter if they got there "by choice" or through circumstances beyone their control, they are human beings and still deserve to be treated with respect.

Who said you were supposed to do something?

The problem is that many many many mental hospitals have been closed down and people who SHOULD be in one are on the streets instead. They've been deemed fit for normal social interaction as far as the law says, but many times that's just not the case. It has nothing to do with education. Also, some of them have been outright abandoned by their families.

Abuses were found in some mental hospitals and publicized, the public came to believe being put in a mental hospital automatically equals fate worse than death, and the people should be given a chance to live "normally." For some people this was great, but for some people not.

Well, My Bleeding Hearts, it boils down to what the person who is begging wants to do and why.

Your diatrabs do not mean a damn thing.

If a person wants to give okay, if not, then so be it!

I as kevin says pay his way, do you or do you give to every panhandler who begs for money?

S**T get over I am not going to give uless you do and soon become broke and go begging!:eek:

umm, i can't exactly imagine that the homeless have superior social skills, especially when most of the general public treats them similarily to how you just described.

and way to go on mumbling to yourself instead of showing him the decency to speak to his face. cause, you know, that requires you to treat him as your equal, and maybe youre a little above that.

as far as the dude not speaking up... yeah. kids and teenagers do the same thing. i know my 16 year old brother does his share of mumbling and voiding of eye contact. instead of ignoring him, i tell him to speak the F up. now in no way am i comparing my family to the homeless, but my logic says if society verbally shuns you, youre daily conversations prolly arent that extensive or advanced. again, that doesnt mean to grunt and mumble, but that's the way it is sometimes.

you know, you hit it on the head for me - i say the EXACT SAME THING when i read some of the ridiculousness on GC cough *this thread* cough

Okay, well, the alternative is to lock them up against their will or to force medication on them they might not want. If they are of no danger to anyone else (and the mental health system is supposed to make that determination) or themselves, they get to go free.

It is still their choice not to take their meds and not to take advantage of whatever programs are available to them. If their disease has taken their ability to choose away, so sad for them, but again, it's not my problem.

Reading over this thread, I am really shocked (probably more than I should be, admittedly). If you stop for a minute and really think about it, I'm sure that you all know someone (a relative, friend's relative, someone!) who it wouldn't take a great stretch of the imagination to picture homeless. If your Uncle Joe, or Aunt Jane, or your friend Jen's Granpa John, or whoever, DIDN'T have a family looking out for them and taking care of them, then where would they be? How would strangers see them, when they are dirty, and alone, and not on their pills? To you, they are a familiar face who deserves compassion and help, but tweak the circumstances just a little bit, and then they're that bum on the street who scares people and everyone is so horrified and angry about. :(

It sounds to me like you do have a big problem with it -- enough to start this thread complaining about it, at any rate. If you dislike homeless people so much, it seems to me the best thing you could do would be to get involved in an organization working to solve the problem - volunteer, help these people, do something constructive, instead of just getting pissed off at victims.

As for those with mental diseases which take away their abilities to make free choices for themselves - it is extremely sad, both for them, and for their families and friends. Whether you choose to have sympathy for that or not is up to you, but it wouldn't kill you to try.

Exactly. My husband has an uncle. Child support takes his whole check. He has nothing. Finally, his car was repo'ed and he could not get to work and he lost his job. Because of this, he could not pay his rent and was evicted. He ended up in a mission. During the day, a bus took everyone downtown and unloaded them in the park. They had to take their belongings with them and wonder around aimlessly and pray that at the end of the day, they could score a bed at the mission again (Exactly like on The Pursuit of Happyness). He is not on drugs and he is not an alcoholic. But he refused to let someone know that he was in desperate need. He was trying to get back on his feet on his own. Finally my father-in-law took him in and is helping him get on his feet.

Actually, a cousin of mine is (or was until recently) in just that situation. He's afflicted with schizophrenia, he chose not to take his meds, and until recently was on the street.

What got him off the street?

He heard Jesus tell him to set himself on fire, so he did. Now he's been at the burn ward at the local hospital for a few months now. After that, IF he survives, he'll likely live out his days in a psychiatric facility in an extremely medicated state.

When someone like that wants to be off their meds and on the street, there's just not a lot you can do for them. They still have their right to be free and do what they want with themselves. Would you take that right away?

I understand that you haven't read the whole thread. Neither would I.

At any rate, about 2-3 pages ago, I apologized for my imprecise language. I meant to have a semi-humorous bitch session re panhandlers, not the homeless who more-less leave me alone.

You're right --- I didn't read every post in the thread, just skimmed through because there were so many. Sorry I missed your earlier post!

But remember, many times, it is up to the individual what they chose to do.

I am not saying this applys to ever person.

But with the health care that Our Govt. is professing, there are more and more on the streets. Some of the biggest groups are ex military types that are forgotten or do not really care and want to hide from people.

If that is the case, then there is no help and why then should I or anyone else want to support them.

They must need to help themselves if possible! Some are just scam artists period.

I agree with you both, and yet, being approached by panhandlers scares me. I don't think it is simply my inability to control them, like someone suggested we might feel in an example involving status and waitresses. It's that they might do me harm.

I think what limited information that I've ever been given about protecting myself and self defense reinforces to be aware of the people around you. With panhandlers, my fear may be irrational but it might not be; I don't know, and it scares me to be approached because while mental illness explains why homeless people may not be employable, it doesn't make them any safer to be around. And I think a few panhandlers depend on this fear when they solicit donations; there's an implied threat or menacing nature to their approach.

Now, I think the majority of panhandlers are probably entirely safe, but I'm still not that comfortable being approached. There's a small change of danger; there's a significant change of my being scammed; and there's very little chance at all that I will help anyone in a significant way. In fact, I might be enabling choices that are likely to be even more destructive.

I want to help homeless people. I want to help poor people. But I also would like to remain unaccosted by strangers. I'd like public spaces to be unthreatening to us all, and I don't think that tolerance of begging is a good long term strategy for helping the homeless.

Just a side note... many schizophrenics don't "choose" to go off their meds. Its a roller-coaster monster inside of you that screams "I'M FINE!" to yourself & the world even though you are absolutely not fine. Many schizophrenics, especially those without a good education about the nature of the beast, don't realize that the "good days" are greatly affected through consistent medication.

In a very VERY primal form of an analogy - think of it like antibiotics... you may have a 10 day prescription, but after 2 or 3 days, you feel much better so you quit taking them. Then, a few days later, you have 10x worse the infection than before because you didn't finish the full 10 days... I know that antibiotics/infection =/= antipsychotics/schizophrenia, but its a very basic analogy so that you get the idea.

Never said it was.

To go alone with this line of thought . . sometimes the side effects of meds are simply intolerable.

Or they just change who you perceive yourself to be so much they are not worth it to the person.

It's a really hard dilemma ... we shouldn't dictate what a person should do with their own bodies and brains, but when they are better (in the eyes of everyone else, if not themselves) on their meds, it's just so awful to know that they could be different. And what can you do with that? :(

Just thought I'd share.....

I was at Ingram Park in Birmingham yesterday. My group leader asked a homeless-looking man what he knew about the park (it's a civil rights memorial park and he looked pretty old, she figured he'd have been around for it). He pointed out a lot of interesting things and told us some great stories while his female friend stood behind him, twitching and scratching with "I'M ON DRUGS" practically tattooed on her forehead. Well, afterward, he had gathered quite a crowd since another tour group was in the park and they came over to listen. When he was done we all applauded him and some of us gave him some money. Someone had just given me $20 and I still had $10 left, so I decided to pass the blessing, you know? Well, when I held it out to him, he said "Oh, thank you!!" and reached for it...and this twitching, scratching female snatched it out my hand, said "Aha!! This one's mine!!" and took off running.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I thought of this thread when I was in the U City Loop today. Some scruffy looking guy approached me and my friend...he asked us for a few dollars for some Church's chicken, lol. We gave it to him, I don't know if he actually went there though.

There is a big difrence between those who decide to and those who decide not to!:mad:

Some maybe ought to make a distinction on this subject first.

I have seen both sides and there is a difference.

Try hitch hiking down the Highway as I was thrown into and had the fine abilitie of a XO who gave me a lift. Warned her of picking up waifs as it were.

Thank goodness she aided me!:)

As someone once stated, "Help or get out of the way"!:cool:

That's Episcopal-speak too. ;) Or rather KJV-speak.

As for the homeless thing.......I had a guy in downtown Atlanta tell me he would bite me and give me AIDS if I didn't give him $$. I said many bad words and told him where he could shove the nearest blunt object. Classy, huh? :o I try not to act like that now. It was many years ago.

In college, we would just go buy them a bag of food from the BK near campus and give them the food.

When I lived in Atlanta, there was a guy there in Midtown who I passed everyday on my way to work and he had really funny signs he would be holding. One was "Yeah, I'll probably buy beer" and one was "Need a Spa Day" (He was pretty scruffy with REALLY long hair). I actually gave him $$ for the creativity. :D

My Favorite Homeless Guy: Willie James Huff a.k.a Funky Chicken

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MEHvRlWe-XI