Terrible, isn't it? Unfortuately, there are even more chapters that are dealing with PR issues regarding facebook, myspace, and alcohol.

No offense- but your defense of OSI doesn't resonate with me because you haven't dealt with them as we have. We've had to deal with OSI for over a year and a half, and not at all because of us ourselves. What is your experience with OSI......and more particularly, Student Conduct?

To me, it seems as though you are running your mouth about Pi Kapp without any understanding of the facts.

Did you know it took 9 months for Student Conduct to hold a hearing, which was supposed to be done within 2 weeks of the accusation?

Did you know Pi Kapp was suspended in Fall '06 based upon testimony of a surpise witness, a clear violation of our student AND legal rights?

Did you know the surpise witness was never mentioned in the 9 months previous by our accuser? Did you know he was never identified, never appeared in court, and was never REQUESTED to appear?

Did you know that we submited an appeal co-written by a lawyer to OSC, requesting a follow-up hearing with the "myserty man" actually PRESENT and IDENTIFIED.........yet were DENIED? (Another clear violation of our rights).

Did you know OSI did not wait until our hearings about formal to decide our punishment?

I could go on and on. I don't pretend that you know all (if any) of the details of the massive debacle we've had with this office, but please don't comment on things you clearly don't understand.

Lastly, it didn't occur to us that a formal dinner held through a 3rd party vendor would land us 4 years. It was even explained to us, ridiculously, that a gathering of 5 or more brothers is considered a social fraternity function. So, going to dinner with 5 of my brothers was technically in violation of our suspension. Sometimes we should let common sense and logic supercede petty technicalities, no?

You are totally right.
 

I've been very involved with OSI through my leadership in various student organizations. I know how they run and do things, and I've had plenty of problems with myself. Coincidently, most of the problems I've had with OSI have been fairness issues.

Like I said, I'm not pointing fingers and I'm not "running my mouth". But I had to slap my forehead when I was speaking to a girl (who is a mutual friend) and works at a UCF office when she said "OH yeah, I went to PI Kapp's formal and it was a blast!!". I had no idea about the rest of your debacle, but if it is true that you got together and had a 'formal' then I personally feel there is no excuse. You were on social probation and those were the terms. Regardless of what had previously happened, in any case like this you have two choices- suck it up and get through it, or cry out "Injustice!!!" and try to ignore it/fight back. Most of the time, sucking it up works better.

Unfortunately, the official event rule- that's one of the UCF rules that I'm heavily pursuing to get re-written right now by the Golden Rule committee. During a meeting of SGA's Student Advocacy Committee, we were reading over the proposed Medical Amnesty bill when I saw that when two members of any organization are socializing, it is considered an official event of that organization. I think that is absolutely rediculous. And while that rule is rarely used to define an RSO's event, it CAN be used to define one because that's what's currently written. I'm really, really sorry for that.

But- it's not like you were "uninformed". It did not have to be explained to you, because you signed a paper early in your college career that said that you understand the Golden Rule and will adhere to it, as well as any changes that the GR committee deem necessary (or something to this effect). Again, unfortunately, many student organizations (not just greek) can and will get in trouble under this stupid, rediculous rule. So, you can't be upset that it's being used against you if you did not read the rules. Rediculous, yes. Uninformed, unfortunately no.

I definitely agree with your last comment, that logic should supercede technicalities... but businesses and corporations, even educational institutions, use what's in writing.... (not logic). Sucks.

I can only assume what's going on (maybe they couldn't put together a unbiased Student Conduct hearing, since many of those on the committee are greek?) but because of the situation, I won't assume. I urge you, in fact I beg you, to not "expose" OSI in any crazy protest or going through the sentinel or whatever, which it sounds like you are wanting to do (another assumption). If you have any respect for your fellow students, and even moreso your fellow greeks, you will not cause more problems in the system.

What I CAN say is talk to President Hitt, Provost Hickey, and Dr. Ehasz about the situation in a respectful manner. They have open forums and from my personal experience, I have gotten several drawn-out campus-wide problems solved just by explaining the situation to them. I'll warn you though, they hate nothing more than an angry, disrespectful, impolite student who won't let the admins get a word out. You could also go through OMBUDS. You could talk to the Board of Trustees, even the Board of Governors. You could do so many more things before resorting to whatever you are going to do. Please, don't make it harder on the rest of us than it already is.

Where do I begin?

First- you admit yourself that OSC/OSI is unfair, yet tell me to "suck it up" and not protest? What on earth is that about? I should just accept the fact that an unfair organization took away my fraternity and not even try to formulate a response at all? I guess we should just sit back and let OSI do whatever they want with no checks or balances and trample anyones' rights they want? It's a good thing our justice system wasn't formed under your "suck it up" principle.

As far as The Golden Rule, why shouldn't OSI/OSC be held to that as well? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't be governed by the SAME rules they're charged to enforce? That is utterly ridiculous. Like I said, if that's the case then I feel terrible for the masses of people who will be trampled by this organization.

And, if somehow OSI is exposed- I'll say GOOD. If OSC can trample the rights of a BIG fraternity, I can only imagine what they're doing to invidiual students. As for "my fellow students", I'd be doing them a favor. OSC should be run fairly, which it clearly is not right now. If you say Pi Kapp should be held accountable (as in ME, etc.) then why shouldn't the people running OSI?

As for the "public forums"- what a joke. I've seen Hitt, etc. talk at those. It's a mere smokescreen for students to feel like they're actually represented. We've tried to talk with UCF and OSI, and every appeal has fallen on def ears. I've already highlighted how our rights were totally stomped all over.

But sorry- "sucking it up" is probably the worst idea I've ever heard. We have the right to fend for ourselves- not even OSI can take that away.

In an effort to keep this calm I'll leave all the stuff about OSI/OSC be. I do agree, however, that they should be held to the same standards. Unfortunately they are UCF entities, not RSOs.

You obviously don't believe me when I say I've contributed to solving NUMEROUS campus problems just by speaking up about them. If you've ever used the shuttle system, I've worked to make it more efficient (and now, more people use the shuttles than ever). The new letters on the parking garage? I brought up the idea. Why UCF stores carry more grocery store type items? Because I asked President Hitt, in front of a crowd of 150 or so, if he would walk from a dorm on campus to the local publix and back just to get some milk/eggs/bread. If you don't believe me, fine, but I'm telling you it's worth a shot.

Good luck with everything, I really hope that you find what you are looking for.

I commend you for those things. However, asking Hitt to investigate unfairness and possibly corruption in the 2nd biggest student organization is a bit different than asking for groceries and letters on buildings. FYI- We've sent a letter to Hitt twice now and have only received generic, info-less replies.

Stop sending letters and call his office to schedule a meeting. It's going to be far more proactive on the part of your chapter to have a 2-way conversation than continue the paper trail.

Some of your chapter's Founding Fathers are among my closest friends. I hope that the men who have come after them will do all they can to follow the Golden Rule and seek fairness and responsibility in a mature way befitting UCF and your organization. I wish you all the best.

If I may, what is the UCF Golden Rule? And what is the Golden Rule committee that oversees it?

The Golden Rule (and committee) are the formal rules for student conduct at the university. The name is a spin on the "Do unto others/Golden Rule" and the university's colors (we are the Golden Knights... ok, they just dropped the word "Golden" and now we are just the Knights.... but our colors are still Black and Gold!)

the NPC greenbook states that sororities will not be punished by suspending their recruiting, or forfeiting their new member classes, so i would imagine that a discussion by recruitment counselors to explain what "probation" means and to advise pnms if any sorority chapters are currently on probation would, in effect, be punishing them, thus violating NPC policy.

it could also be considered a rush infraction if any sorority happened to "mention" anothers probation to a pnm.

The Golden Rule is the set of rules that students are expected to follow. It covers everything from drinking, to cheating, to discrimination, to hygeine. I mean, everything. Each student, by being an enrolled student at the University, agrees to abide by the Golden Rule. ANY student or student organization can suffer the consequences if they do not follow the Golden Rule. See here : http://www.goldenrule.sdes.ucf.edu/

The Golden Rule review committee is a group of 7 students who make and review proposals for changes to the Golden Rule. Then they recommend any changes they deem necessary. They meet on a standard schedule and meetings are open to anyone: http://www.osc.sdes.ucf.edu/osc_Gold...wCommittee.asp

Most of these types of committees have lots of Greeks on them :)

EVERY UCF organization is overrun by the Greeks. It's a conspiracy. :cool:

Haha I wouldn't say that. There are many organizations that are heavily overseen by UCF staff that try to prevent greeks from being leaders in those organizations (Honors Congress, LEAD Scholars, professional organizations, etc). But, in groups where they are selected (not elected) such as standing committees, (GRRC, Student Conduct Board, etc) those are mostly greeks. Which is why I was saying it was probably difficult for the Office of Student Conduct to put together an unbiased group for any of the Greek probation/suspension hearings. But, in many ways, you are very correct! GO GREEK UCF!

That's exactly the problem with Student Conduct. Many times a decision can be passed based upon if the panel is pro or anti you before you enter the room.

UCF needs to appoint a 3rd party, neutral panel and make sure that a legal counsel oversees every hearing to make sure these hearings are run legally.

I guess it was just an assumption that SLS (Student Legal Services) sat in on every hearing anyhow. But regardless, I wonder if these cases are actually legal issues or not-- you know, like lawyers are well-versed in US law or whatever they specialize in, you would need a neutral party that is well versed in UCF "law". Which is supposed to be the SCB. ::rolls eyes:: oh well. Things are just never the way they should be.

Since UCF is a public school apart of the Florida system, they are bound by the laws of the state, and thus students are to be granted their legal rights in any school proceeding.

Every hearing should be run in accordance to legal correctness. To not do so would be a violation of students' rights. Remember- students must follow UCF's rules, but UCF must obey the law and uphold all rights of students. They don't supercede those.

Absolutely! Public universities are bound by public law. To say that a student is obliged to obey all their rules simply by enrolling is bogus. Speech codes is an example of what universities try, often unsuccessfully, to impose.

Someone here said that the best approach for a greek group is to just bow your head and take your lumps. No doubt that's sometimes true depending on what you've been up to. But if a greek group wants to challenge the university on the basis of due process, they'll usually have a good case because of the arrogance and bullying of administrators who think they can make up the rules as they go long.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Due process and upholding of legal rights should be guarenteed to students, and if they're not then the organization must be called out for it. THere's no doubt in my mind that a certain degree of arrogance has been a factor in our case, and I'm sure the cases of TONS of cases handled in similar procedures.

Another tip- ALL DOCUMENTS, including EMAILS, involving university employees are allowed to be viewed under the Freedom of Information Act. Don't be afriad to seek documents that you want- they are public records.

Holy crap, that was you?! That's seriously the most brilliant idea ever. No...really...I went there for 5 years and had no idea what garage was what. I was on campus last week and nearly wrapped myself around a tree looking at one of the garages and exclaiming to my old roommate "WOW! What a brilliant idea!"

LOL, I guess it's a half & half thing, some people like it & some don't... I have no idea what those letters are all about, are they in a clockwise or counterclockwise circle around campus? I only park in the 1 behind HPA so I don't know what the other letters on the other garages are. I'm better with directions with calling it the old North, East, South & West garages... except that new huge garage was called Garage V (5...ha "south-west") when I saw it on the map.

Still a great idea though, when your talking about where you parked at, you only have to say one letter & not a whole word like north....hahahaha.

You have to use common sense
 

The sad fact is people do get hurt and killed and we are in a society that sues for everything and everyone suffers. My chapter did not haze but they made the pledges do silly things. It was a small house they were very united and it was a lot of fun. Mind you, I became a member at age 35 as a graduate student. I am a risk management advisor now and i am lucky with the chapter I deal with, you have to be careful , stupidity makes everyone look bad, and you dont want to be asked questions you dont have answers for. In the 80's when i was an undergrad and you had hazing it was a real turn off. All frats were a turn off. They were obnoxious. i truly love my frat, (Sig Ep), and the chapter I deal with, people have their opinions but they are about what the frat was intended. they do well academically, get along, and there is no drama. We had a goofy phraise at a part time job i had once" its always funny til someone loses an eye" well this is true. Or a life or anything else. It is supposed to be fun and enhance the college experience and the life experience. That should be the focus. "Proud to be a sig ep"!