Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1377087)

I find all of this quite comical..

Thanks Jubilance about my qualifications. I appreciate it. :D This discussion is not about who knows more it is about misrepresentation regarding facts clearly discussed by several professionals.

It is about supply and demand. The US will not have the meat supply as demand for beef products goes up. It's not just meat or milk. Serum's used, the bonemeal is used, the leather products are used. At least 10+ items are used from the animal. It takes several Federal Agencies to approved use for animal processing...

Actual "ELECTROPORATION" of Enucleated Zygotes with somatic DNA will give us a certain higher yield in the number of animals.

No one has clearly answered how many different strains of bovine species in the US not including bison and buffalo...

Jersey, Halstein [sp?], Brahma, Rowan, Kobe, Angus, etc.

That's just the short list...

It takes ~5000 steer per year are consumed for food in the US...

And that doesn't include the Veal we get from Hawaii off the Parker Ranch...

And most of our beef is beginning to get imported from Southeat Asia and South America just like the rest of our food.

Cloning is a way to boost our market share for rare meats and increase the premium. It is not cool as an overall practice, but we live in a capitalistic society and well...

Just price out tenderloins or filet mignons... And when is the last time $2 billion business for beef BBQ production can be told ANYTHING BUT NO?

Now you know why they are cloning animals...

Originally Posted by jubilance1922 (Post 1377319)

Anytime chica ;)

As for the underlined: I got $5 that says the majority of GC have no idea what those words even mean, and they have to look them up.

Originally Posted by KSigkid (Post 1377329)

True, although I'm not sure that should prevent people from talking about this. We have lots of subjects on this site (government/politics, legal, the media) where people don't have much knowledge but still post their opinions.

I do agree with you, though, that where someone has a demonstrated knowledge of a subject, the rest of the posters should respect that knowledge (AKA Monet in science, Delt in TV production, etc.).

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1375933)

GMO's, the possibility of cloned animals in our food suppy, viruses added to deli meats, bovine hormones, illegal pesticides sprayed on fruit brought in from South America and Mexico is why we should all buy stock in Whole Foods Markets.

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum (Post 1377786)

there won't be any cloned meat in the food supply, that would be too expensive, the cloned animals are for breeding only

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1377791)

Playing devil's advocate, because I just don't care either way whether they clone or not:

I have a feeling that the same people that don't want to eat cloned meat, would also have a problem eating the offspring of cloned meat.

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum (Post 1377818)

yeah, maybe, but I just wanted to clairify a little.

the people who oppose this probably don't want sick people to ever get better either, because that goes against "God's will" or "Nature"

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum (Post 1377818)

the people who oppose this probably don't want sick people to ever get better either, because that goes against "God's will" or "Nature"

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1377087)

It is about supply and demand. The US will not have the meat supply as demand for beef products goes up. It's not just meat or milk. Serum's used, the bonemeal is used, the leather products are used. At least 10+ items are used from the animal. It takes several Federal Agencies to approved use for animal processing...

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1378058)

Can you quote some statistics to back up your allegation? On the contrary, I seem to be finding evidence of a glut of meat -- both chicken and beef on the U.S. market:

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1377087)

No one has clearly answered how many different strains of bovine species in the US not including bison and buffalo...

Jersey, Halstein [sp?], Brahma, Rowan, Kobe, Angus, etc.

That's just the short list...

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1378058)

What about the overproduction of milk?

"Carol Tucker Foreman, of the Consumer Federation of America, said U.S. farmers produce more milk than Americans can drink, and the government must buy the surplus. "Since 1999, dairy-support programs have cost taxpayers over $5 billion," she said."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html

Originally Posted by ISUKappa (Post 1378205)

I would say, from my experience, the breeds most commonly used for Beef production in the Midwest are Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Charolais, Limousin and any combination of those breeds. ;) Jersey and Holstein are technically dairy breeds, but their meat can be processed and sold like beef cattle. Breeds such as Longhorn, and to a lesser extent the Brahma, are more common in Texas and Mountain/Plains states.

You know what I'm going to do, talk to my dad who IS ACTUALLY IN THE BEEF BUSINESS on what he feels the market is doing and whether or not the potential for cloning would be good for the farm, not rely on a bunch of links.

Personally, I get beef for free and I know exactly where and when it was born, what it ate, what medicines (if any) were given and how and where it was processed and I like it like that. Now, if only I could talk the husband into taking over when dad and the guys retire...

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1378058)

Can you quote some statistics to back up your allegation? On the contrary, I seem to be finding evidence of a glut of meat -- both chicken and beef on the U.S. market:

"In November, Tyson ended its fiscal year with a third straight quarterly loss, as its chicken and beef businesses were hurt by a glut of meat on the market. Agricultural economists have blamed the meat surplus on a range of factors, including overproduction following high market prices for animals in the past two years."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/4440816.html

The glut drove meat prices down... and as a result, the struggling meat industry is looking at the recent winter storms on the Plains as prompting beef prices to rise next year.

What about the overproduction of milk?

"Carol Tucker Foreman, of the Consumer Federation of America, said U.S. farmers produce more milk than Americans can drink, and the government must buy the surplus. "Since 1999, dairy-support programs have cost taxpayers over $5 billion," she said."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html



Again.. where are you numbers? The low success rate and the high number of abnormalites in cloned animals not only makes no economic sense, but it is cruel to animals. Further... Did you know that this process will cost an estimated $15,000 per procedure?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html



There has been much resistance to the idea of consuming cloned meats in much of the world. It would seem to me that instead of being positive for our trade balance, this would be a big negative as other countries will be suspect of the safety of US Food.

Countries like Japan and South Korea have already had or have bans of U.S. meat in place due to bovine spongiform encephalopathy (Mad Cow) worries. In fact in 2006, 21 countries banned the importation of U.S. meat over safety concerns. And you think the U.S. food supply is safe? Apparently, those countries think so.

" According to a recent report to the European Union’s executive arm by the Danish Centre for Bioethics and Risk Assessment, “Groups of citizens, and even some member states, would be likely to resist the import and/or marketing [labeled or unlabeled] of cloned animals and their products.“

"In South Korea, one of the largest export markets for U.S. beef, cloned foods “are not positive“ said Sockjoong Yoon, minister for public affairs at the South Korean Embassy in Washington. Chong Ghee Ahn, the embassy’s economic counselor, said it was too early to say what impact cloning might have on U.S. exports. However, he added that in the wake of mad-cow disease and avian flu, “Korean customers are getting very, very sensitive.“
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content...ontentid=94274

Regarding South America: Columbia and Peru have only recently reopened importation of U.S. meat after banning it due to Mad Cow concerns. This is not new trade as you imply. In 2003 for example, the U.S. exported a combined total of more than $4 million worth of beef and beef products to Colombia and Peru.
http://www.meatnews.com/index.cfm?fu...e&artNum=12879



In what way, when there is international resistance to cloned meat products?



Actually, meat prices are lower due to the glut of beef and chicken on the market. Again, please see the first article I quoted regarding Tyson's profits falling.

The bottom line... the safety of cloned meat is still in question.

The nonprofit advocacy group the Center for Food Safety in Washington, D.C., cited a number of health and safety problems related to cloned livestock that the group says the agency has not properly addressed.

People eating cloned meat would be exposed to higher amounts of animal hormones, related to the cloning process, the group says.

The animals themselves would suffer from the high incidence of disease and birth defects currently recorded in cloned animals.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ed-meat_2.html

And this from a news release I received fromThe Center for Food Safety:
“When they deny us mandatory labels, they don’t just deny us the right to choose,” said Andrew Kimbrell, executive director of the Center for Food Safety.

“They also deny our health professionals the ability to trace potential toxic or allergic reactions to this food,” Kimbrell said. “It’s bad enough they’re making us guinea pigs. But when we have health effects, we won’t be able to trace it.”

I don't choose to be the FDA's guinea pig. Do you?

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1379904)

My Doctorate in Molecular Genetics and Medicine from the University of California, San Diego and San Diego State University is enough for you to have to establish my credibility on the subject.

Moreover, my published papers on PubMed and Entrez in human disease as well as my creditials husband's Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine is enough of a reference for you to justify what we both know in the field.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1379922)

Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm not.. because you have not refuted a single statement which I made, nor have you quoted any references to back up your point of view. I, on the other hand.. supplied you with the references. Why haven't you addressed my specific statements? You can't refute them, perhaps?



Is this a science test? No, I think it is merely a diversion because you can't refute any of the statements which I backed up with references. Can you?



Translation: You won't because you can't.



What has that got to do with the price of beer?



Do I now need to give you an economics lesson? It's called "supply and demand"--
You can read all about it here:
http://www.qcbusinessjournal.com/art...re/1022491.txt

If you're referring to tax breaks to beef producers-- yes, that does partially influence the price of beef. For example, when Mad Cow was discovered in Washington in 2004, the house and senate offered temporary relief to the beef industry.... and in 2006, tax relief for livestock producers during the drought.



So where are all of your references?



No, we're not starving.. instead, we're being exposed to all kinds of hormones and antibiotics being injected into beef. There is also very little testing being done for mad cow.



Again, what has that got to do with the price of beer?



And your point? How does this relate to cloning, or are we just going on yet another pointless diversion because you have not been able to refute any of the points I made?



And that just answers my question. When someone feels the need to attack the poster rather than the subject.. that simply means that the person doing the attacking doesn't have a leg to stand on in a debate.

Originally Posted by KSigkid (Post 1379983)

You've used a handful of sources to "prove" your point. Can't you, at least in a reasoned manner, discuss the topic with someone who has the credentials to discuss the topic? Also, if someone knows the field, do they need to quote another expert, or shouldn't they just be able to stand on their own experience? Or are you just going to listen to people who agree with you?.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1379997)

She is not a cloning expert... so yes, she needs to source what she says..

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1380010)

She has cloned cells before...what else does she need to do to be an "expert"?? How many cells have you cloned?

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1380010)

She has cloned cells before...what else does she need to do to be an "expert"?? How many cells have you cloned?

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380023)

And why has she not responded to my points?

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog (Post 1380026)

Because your posts evoke this response:
http://www.sachsreport.com/yawn.jpg


And I still fail to see how your posting of random websites makes you more of an expert on cloning then those who have actually performed the act of cloning...even if it wasn't the whole damn animal.

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1379897)

My husband is a vet. An aquatic animal specialist in Salmon: mainly chinook, steelhead and sockeye as well as trout...

Get me a good tenderloin and filet mignon, I will can get you the nice copper river salmon when it's in season... ;)

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1379922)

Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm not.. because you have not refuted a single statement which I made, nor have you quoted any references to back up your point of view. I, on the other hand.. supplied you with the references. Why haven't you addressed my specific statements? You can't refute them, perhaps?

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380023)

And why has she not responded to my points?

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380034)

Why don't you constructively add to the debate . . . .

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1380042)

AKAMonet's pretty smart. Perhaps she has learned, like so many of the rest of us, that you posit unsupportable arguments, string together random citations from "experts" in an attempt to support those unsupportable arguments, often taking them out of context or reading more into them than is there, and then expect people to take you seriously and respond to you point by point, even though you're not going to listen if they do.

Perhaps she doesn't want to play games with you, constantly responding to your mantra of "why haven't you answered my question" with "because your question shows that you don't know what you're talking about."

Perhaps she, like so many of the rest of us, decided a long time ago that in these types of "discussions," you simply lack any credibility.

I think I just got my daily recommended allowance of irony.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380023)

How many animals has she cloned? Try again! And why has she not responded to my points?

Originally Posted by centaur532 (Post 1380051)

Basically because it's the equivalent of a white belt calling you out on black belt techniques while disregarding your years of experience. I mean would you honestly take the time with a gleaming (like fresh out of the package) white belt to dissect every single point that he makes?
And I'm not saying like stupid white belt questions, I mean the really obnoxious new student who just says that you're wrong no matter what you say, even when you're obviously not. The ones you wish had never shown up for class.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380050)

Or perhaps she and you find that my "experts" and "sourcing" has left she and you unable to refute them? Instead, she and you dance around the point. Now, would you like to address any of the points I made? Or do you concede the debate as well?

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380057)

Where have my facts been in error? The difference is that these aren't "my" facts-- these are sourced facts. If you and she cannot refute them, then perhaps you're calling the wrong person a white belt.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380078)

Just as I thought... you can't refute the facts I presented.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380078)

Just as I thought... you can't refute the facts I presented.

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1380062)

Spin it however you want (because you always do), but it's really that simple.

Originally Posted by blueangel (Post 1380078)

Just as I thought... you can't refute the facts I presented.

Originally Posted by jubilance1922 (Post 1381294)

And that's why you leave a woman alone when she tells you she's an expert in the field!

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1381279)

Blueangel:

I will answer your bullisht assed question: The safety and efficacy of cloned meats.

When you discuss cloning animal, you are talking about either adding or removing genes. Or you are talking about removing nuclei that contain X odd megabases of bovine genome with # chromosomes. In all mammals, complete numbers of chromosomes is manditory to successful cause zygote formation (Molecular Embryology 101). Actually, they inject nuclei into either some oocytes they can grow or embryonic stem cells they have isolated from blastula staged embryos. The reasons are numerous. Mainly because it works.

Then they implant the embryos into the pseudo-pregnant females. Resultant calves or pups will occur and then be genotyped by PCR.

From there, once the animal is adult stage, they will breed it with it's wildtype counterparts and generate an F2 generation.

You can crank out premiums meats extremely quickly with biotech used. Namely, the pork that tastes sweeter, Kobe beef cuts, less tough beef cuts. Basic breeding takes long, one has to wait for the animals to be the right age and if they like each other. The breeding times are excessive and the pregnancies are long (~11 months for various bovine breeds). And let's not discuss horse breedings.

Chickens are injected directly to generate transgenics. Their process of embryogenesis is fundamentally different from mammalian species because they are from the Avian Kingdom.

The public health concerns of cloned meat, most meats are processed, cured, treated, and mainly cooked. Eating raw meat from fresh kill is unsafe and no government agency purports that. Even milk sold must be pasteurized and homogenize, although raw milk, which contains blood, urine and plenty of microorganisms (Lactobacillus sp. & E. coli (maybe)), I heard tastes delicious but raw milk's safety cannot be guarenteed for consumption--spelled drink at your own risk. A finding by Louis Pasteur in the 19th century.

Then there is this guy Fleming... Kinna discovered Penicillian. And Jacob and Manod--received the Nobel Prize on what exactly is the genetic material, which was DNA. Watson & Crick solved the structure of DNA.

I decided to tell you this because you would respond immaturely to me as others. You clearly are having a neuropsychiatric episode on GC and you may need a vitamin B complexes to supplement your diet. Cecil's Medical Textbook clearly states that these kinds of problems can be solved by consuming vitamin B complexes and rather quickly.

When I get a chance, I will post another "Grand Rounds".

My GC Physicians will be more than happy to assist me in posting MD Consult.

Originally Posted by BaylorBean (Post 1381330)

I heart my fellow molecular scientist!