macallen and elephant walk,

would you please tell us what constitutes a top fraternity on your campus?

Alpha Gam, well and we say people don't come to our house, that means we also don't really come in any sort of contact with them. Generally, like was said, we have probably 85 percent of our pledge class a couple weeks before formal rush. We generally get them through summer parties and what not, and I've never seen a minority come to one of our beach party weekends, skeet shoots, or even when we rent out bars in Atlanta, Charlotte, Bham, etc. Its just how it is, and other than people on this board who are pretty disconnected from it, I don't really see too many minorities on these campuses who care. At all.

Usually a long standing chapter 75+ years at least, powerful alumni (not always a determinant because of Sigma Nu on our campus...they have some of the Tysons and such), Takes the guys everyone fights over, tough pledging programs, acceptable academics, some philanthropy but it doesn't get seen, the party house.

I'm not sure why you posted this in response to my comment about sorority pledge classes. I conceded your point about fraternity pledge classes when numbers are an issue. This is not the case with sororities during NPC formal recruitment, where the biggest pledge class is usually indicative of a strong house.

I'm not sure how it is as far as sorority recruitment at every school, but it doesn't seem like there is much difference in numbers in the really good chapters and the ok ones. However, there is an obvious difference between the great, good and ok sororities and the terrible ones.

When the hell did I ever make any claims based on "elitism"?? What is your deal with using this word? I have been pretty calm, but you are really starting to piss me off. I don't think that I am better than anyone, period. Our standards are in no way, shape or form, fucking racist. Some of you morons don't understand the magnitude of that word......and I take quite a bit of offense when me or my chapter is accused of being racist becasue we don't go out of out way to extend a bid to a fucking minority. We have every right in the world to extend bids to guys whom we see fit to be a part of our chapter. We have areas and locations that we like to get guys from...and the rest of our pledge numbers are made up during rush. I honestly do try to get a very good idea of the kind of guys that come through our house.......and I have yet to see a black guy that is anything close to what we would want. Nothing in common, period. As far as Asians and Hispanics.....don't really see any......and the ones that do go through would rather be in a Latino or Asian fraternity from what I can tell through the years.

I'm glad you think that we are unable to be "noble and work for the social good" because we don't go searching for a minority that might fit in with our fraternity.....nice logic there. Last time I checked, the men in our house wrere all raised in a high class social upbringing that certainly taught them how to be good hosts, and I don't think anyone would say that they weren't gentlemen.

Sorry, we don't wait around till formal rush starts and then "search" for guys on campus. A large proportion of our pledge class is already determined prior to school starting. Being at UGA I figured you would have some knowledge of how fraternity recruitment works. This is why a good chapter holds rush parties in areas that they like to recruit from and holds rush trips for the guys that we are really interested in. Obviously there are always some guys that will come through the house during rush that we may take a look at.....but for the most part the class is already made up. If we don't find anyone during rush that we don't think would be a good fit......tough shit. Besides the point, why should we try to pursue people that don't show any interest in us IN THE FIRST PLACE?? I haven't seen a black guy at any one of our rush events in the summer....ever.....and the ones that are held at the fraternity houses during the summer are enormous parties. Same goes for bar tabs, golf tournaments, ranch trips, New Orleans trips, etc. etc.

Sorry........we aren't getting weaker because we don't actively pursue minorities for the sake of saying we are diversified. That is horrible reasoning.....

Agreed we hold pre-rush parties in Dallas, Little Rock and Memphis. I have never seen a black person there. The only black person who came through rush last year wanted to go Lambda Chi, and they cut him. He dropped out of rush.

Down here at Texas, we have 3 of them....SAE, FIJI, KA.

I would describe them all as very wealthy houses with a very long and well noted history on campus, all having very powerful alumni. The top chapters have been so for a long time. The chapters themselves are very strong in numbers and are desired equally by a huge percentage of rushees. Members are all from well established, affluent, upper class families and usually have some sort of family tie-in to the chapter that they are a part of. Guys from all of these chapters share many common interests, whether it be politics, music, dress, hunting and fishing, playing golf, etc. Guy's grades are good and many spend their summers interning for senators, attorneys, bankers, etc. etc. These chapters generally have the best and most well attended parties...and are all very popular among the sororities....but generally only do things with the equally top sorority chapters on campus. Also, you don't know what this is....but the top houses generally produce most of the Silver Spurs and Texas Cowboys on campus.......the guys that shoot the cannon and take care of BEVO during and away from football games. They are very high honors and most always awared to fraternity members.

and you have just described pi kappa alpha at fsu-minus the spurs and cowboys. of all the men who have served as the seminole mascot, chief osceola, the majority have been pikes.

unfortunately, sae is not currently on the fsu campus-they were a strong chapter when i was in school, but had some problems and had to leave, came back on, and left again. hopefully they will return soon.

ok. great. I've heard differently......from guys that go to Florida St.

Mac, lets be honest, its FSU. What would you expect.

The Pikes at Florida State are HUGE, thats why they have that outragous house ( you need a banquet hall just to conduct a chapter meeting). They have become (in Nationals mind) Pi Kappa Alpha's un-official flagship chapter. I've never met anyone from that chapter, or even know much about them other than whats been written about them in our magazine, so I really can't comment on them other than given their background and accomplishments, I find it hard to believe that they are the WORST on campus. If you go to different parts of the country you really find out how different people are from one another. What jives with you might not jive with someone else, even if you come from similar social/economical background. Trust me, theirs probably some SAE at Michigan thinking his chapter's better than yours, and another chapter at Indiana thinking the same. It's kind of pointless throwing this back and forth. It's great that you believe your chapter is the best, everyone should have that attitude, but somewhere out there is a different group that thinks your chapter ain't shit.

With their numbers, no one is claiming they are the worst. However every FSU girl I've talked to (thankfully not many) and several other fraternities consider Pike a blanket bid. Mostly GDI girls who think it's cool to hang out in a big fraternity house hang out there among others. Pike would consider the FSU chapter it's flagship chapter. That would make a lot of sense.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Guys, it doesn't make that much sense to say as a reason that you haven't even had the possibililty of pledging a black guy that "none come through rush," and then turn around a say, "we get our whole pledge class before rush even starts." If that's the case, you all could rush some black guys. Their not going through rush isn't a factor if you all do as many private rush parties as you claim. You say, "well no black guys came to the parties." Right. Did you invited any? That might be the problem.

If in 2006, you don't know any black people who seem similar to you, that's probably not totally an accident. It's probably a reflection of your attitude about race. Own up to it. Quit pretending that it's only circumstance, not intent that explains it.

Yep, I do know how things go down at big southern schools, and that is why I'm not buying your load of crap. It's not an accident that the system is the way it is. You are partially responsible for the way it is. You have some ability to bring about a positive change and you elect not to.

...I don't see it as positive. If things happen, we'll end up integrating. However, there is no reason to force diversity. I haven't found a black guy I'd ever even think about rushing. It's not based on racism it's based on money, family connections, and so on. You are born into it. Blacks as a general whole have not been born into white fraternities. That's why I'm a legacy several times over at other fraternities at other campuses.

It's probably a reflection of their own forced segregation, I would think. Blacks like to hang out with blacks, I'm not sure why, but that's how it is. In my hometown, we don't eat together, we don't talk. It's segregation by how it is, not by law.

If it were considered positive change, that would make sense. If there came in a black guy who loved whiskey, spoke properly, had lots of old money (not sure if that's possible), listened to widespread panic and country, dressed correctly, parents had clout and so on, I would give him a bid on the spot.

I'd also like to point out, that while this is not always true, blacks often cannot financially pay for fraternity dues. Many are on minority scholarships, how are they going to pay 2000$ a semester?

How's the third tier treating you?

Would you please shut up......seriously.....this is getting ridiculous. WE DON"T HAVE TO RUSH A DAMN BLACK GUY IF WE DON'T WANT TO. It's as simple as that. If you despise the fact that we recruit from specific areas with specific guys in mind......tough .....that is how it is. Why are you trying to make this sound like we have to do this, and have to do that?.....we don't have to do anything. We have every right in the world to keep our fraternity highly selective, rush guys from the same areas we always do, and do things the way we want it. I'm not going to openly search different cities and comb through rush to find a black guy that may have a few things in common with us when there are tons of other guys that we KNOW exhibit the qualities that we want. It doesn't make any sense to do that........and i'm especially not going to do it when I can count the number of black guys that go through IFC rush on one hand. I don't know about other campuses...but I think its safe to say that down here......black guys that want to join a fraternity are perfectly content with pledging a BGLO.

Find me a black man at the University of Texas, or anywhere for that matter, that likes to play golf, listen to Grateful Dead and the Allmans, duck hunt, fly fish, talk politics, go to Widespread Panic concerts, drink 25 year old scotch neat, and spend time at a country club drinking brandy and smoking cigars.......and maybe i'll take your thoughts into consideration. I haven't seen it......and I know/meet/see/am around black people on a daily basis. Don't sit here and feed us some bs about how not finding black people that are similar to us is a reflection on our attitudes concerning race.

So what do you think about Black oganizations that are......gasp........ALL BLACK? Maybe I should go bitch and moan to them about how they should diversify before they rock the very foundations of civilization as we know it.

Why do you keep saying things about "bringing about positive changes"?? THERE ISN'T ANYTHING WRONG!!!!!!!!! Our chapter is doing great, what's there to change? I feel like i'm having a discussion with a brick wall.

Would you prefer we go through the phone list and look for minority-sounding names and be sure to call them? Holy crap. This is why I hate this school...

As for Pike at FSU, I'm sure they're the lovechild of Pike nationals. I'm also sure there is some TKE chapter up north who thinks they're better than any southern chapter. I really don't care. I like our chapters. I'd rather be in a second tier southern chapter (and by south, I don't mean FSU), than in the best fraternity on campus at Michigan. Its just different here, and thankfully you people havent figured that out yet. You're right, if I just wanted to randomly select 150 guys without any concern for quality, I'd be all about PKA at FSU. Thankfully, in the south, we're interested in more than just being a microcosm of society. You guys don't have to like it. To be honest, you probably wouldnt even like us. I imagine many on this board would be turned off by things like collared shirts and un-gelled hair...we also like beer and bourbon here, I know, ridiculous...where's the grapefruit and stoli...not here, friends.

Side Note, to the FSU person, no offense, me and you seem to agree on some things, which is promising.

Guys,

Of course you guys can pick anyone you want to give membership to. Of course you guys use your own standards for what you are looking for in members.
It is probably true that the majority of Black students at your campuses don't fit the mold you describe.

I'm realizing more and more that you are right that if your attitudes in real life come across as clearly as they do here that the top notch Black guys by your own standards probably don't want to join your groups.

My point remains though that your policies end up being racist. That bothers me, and I'd want to change it. Of course it may not bother you.

I think to really integrate the NPC/IFC system, the top tiers need to buy in. It seems like a great opportunity to take a clearly correct, moral action.

When you look back on the stuggle to integrate the southern universities we're talking about, do you find yourself sympathizing with the George Wallaces, Lester Maddoxs, Orval Faubus? Because it seems to me that that is the historic side your on. Sure they were faced with a lot of people who wanted integration, and you would have to do it yourself based on the idea that it was the morally right thing to do.

It also probably doesn't seem as important to anyone else that you exclude Blacks, but it should seem, I think, important to everyone who participates in a segregated system.

I can't make you do anything. I know that, but it seems to me based on what little I know about fraternities, that the idea isn't only to have a social club for a certain kind of guy. It's to assemble the absolute best guys for the strength of the group so that they can have a social club AND carry out the ideals of the group. In many cases, it seems that the goals of the group involve leadership and service in the outside community.

When a group or a system conducts itself in such a way that it looks bad to the outside world, it weakens its influence outside the group or system.

Yes.

So are Peggy McIntosh and Joe Feagin.

Okay, I made an incorrect assumption based on the general membership of DST. I apologize if that alone was offensive.


Whiteness may be doing more for you than for me.

LOL. No, I'm not white.

But Peggy McIntosh and Joe Feagin still are. You should do a Google search of them. It will negate everything you've typed and ever will type about this topic.

Yeah, I know Peggy McIntosh is; it was you I didn't know about.

It would negate it if I accepted it, which I'm not sure I will. But I do like to challenge myself and my assumptions, so maybe I do need to read the whole thing.

Cool. White privilege is both conscious and subconscious. It includes but is not limited to social networks. Again, it's about across context advantage, regardless of the specific instances where you are not privileged (as far as you know).

I don't see any BGLOs with white members........so let's say they are racist too.....just to make things fair.

We aren't racist......at all.
Racism: 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
Racism: 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Last time I checked, we didn't hate anyone, nor did we exclude blacks because we think we are superior to them. I think you need to understand the magnitude of that word before you call us or our practices racist.....again.

Look......from what I have seen, black guys down here are very content with being in their own fraternities and associating with other black guys. What is so wrong with that? The amount of black people that exress an interest in joining an IFC fraternity is borderline 0.

I think a double standard does exists for NPHC groups and NPC/IFC groups. While I'm not usually a fan of double standards, when one group of organizations has race at the center of its mission and another group of organizations doesn't, it seems like pretending that the racial policies of the groups should be the same is a little silly.

If you want to continue saying that having a policy that basically says, " we only take people exactly like us, and we happen to be White" doesn't suggest that you think White people are better than other groups, I've got nothing else to say.

We don't have a "racial policy". Thanks. Don't be an idiot. I never said anything about a policy. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You are right, race isn't a central mission of our fraternity or chapter.....making our chapter the best we possibly can is, however. It is our job to do that. We take people who are a good, solid fits for our chapter that share common interests and ideals. I never said, nor do I think, that white people are better than other groups. We are not going to actively pursue a group of people that show no interest in joining our fraternity for the sake of diversifying our house.....that is moronic and not the least bit conducive to our chapter. I don't care if they are black, white, green, yellow.....whatever......its not going to happen. If you abhor the fact that many Southern chapters have only white people so much.....then go join the NAACP and preach to someone of a higher power. I'm sure Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would love you. Until then......quit with your never ending rant......while you are behind.

I agree with you about seeing diversity in traditionally southern fraternities. I have seen several black people in Kappa Alpha Order.

You are absolutely right. I have many friends in Greek Life at FSU and they always speak very highly of ZTA and Pike.

To respond to what others were saying, I know racism exists, especially at southern schools, but at my school (which is in the south, but not traditionally southern), it does not determine whether or not you are extended a bid to join a sorority or a fraternity. The are black women in Delta Gamma, Kappa Delta, TriDelta, and Chi Omega here, as well as black members of Sig Ep, Sigma Chi, and countless other fraternities.

I do notice that the multi-cultural fraternities prefer to segregate themselves and I can understand that because their organizations are based on totally different cultures. Their organization bonds them together. In that same way, I can see why historically white groups may feel the same why, though I do believe if an intelligent, classy woman of a different race fits in well with a chapter here, she is deserving of a bid.

Also, there is a Southeastern Asian sorority here with numerous black members. Their president is also black.

Macallen, you're so silly. It's hard believe that you could really be a member of top tier group anyplace.

Enlighten me on how you have come to that conclusion.

.....and i'm sorry you are in a bottom feeder sorority at UGA.

Read your posts, man, read your posts.

*I don't mean to insult the rest of your group. I'm just surprised they'd associate with you.

Not that anyone cares, but I'd like to take back this smartass comment and the one I made above it. Race is always a touchy subject, and I think Macallan and I got carried away.

You have insulted me and my group, and I don't appreciate it. I'll be the first to say that I haven't come across as very gentlemanly in response to your posts.......but when someone that I don't know who lives thousands of miles away from our chapter accuses us of being racist and having racist trains of thought concerning our membership makeup....I have a problem with it. I have tried to explain our thought processes and our recruitment practices as best as I can....and you have either chosen to ignore them or you have the reading comprehension skills of a blind pre-schooler.

Amazing thread.

But, it boils down to people join Greek Organizatins because they as individuals feel comfortable with those members.

Yes there is still racial considerations as some of the Southern boys say, but it is not all over the country either.

Did the Founders of this Country have different ideals when the Country was founded? Of course, that was the norm for the time.

Supposedly times have changed, but evidently not in some parts of the country.

Are the Whites anymore bias than the Blacks? Doesn't seem like it on this thread.

It seems that some Blacks are much more so than the Souther Crackers.

Oh bringing schools into this is ignorant. If anything, Missouri was a more Southern slant than Arkansas.

Post away as it shows????

Have you ever been to the University of Arkansas? Granted it's in the Northwest, so it's much like Oklahoma and not like the rest of Arkansas. But many of the people come from the Delta and Central Arkansas, which are all very very Southern.

Actually, yes I have. My Brother went to U. Arkansas.

Umm, I don't think so. Arkansas have a far more southern slant than Missouri.

Eek
 

As much as most of us wish that racial discrimination would not happen in today's society, unfortunately, it still does. :(

:rolleyes: ......................