You're right. It will be ancient history in a few weeks. And all women gossip about each other. This isn't a problem exclusive to UCF or sororities. It concerns the entire gender. Not everyone in a sorority LUVS everyone in their sorority all of the time. Yes, sororities shouldn't concern fraternity men with their chapter problems, but I think it is reasonable that a woman should be allowed to vent to her friends, regardless of gender, if someone has upset her and she is trying to figure out the means to cope or deal with that person.

What does it matter how prestigious Southern fraternities haze their new members when the thread in question is about UCF and a UCF student is commenting on a UCF situation. Fact: The SAE chapter at UCF was a strong UCF chapter. Fact: SAE at UCF has been de-recognized. Fact: In the past, UCF fraternities have gotten in trouble for hazing. Fact: There is a law in Florida that prohibits hazing. Whether that law is clear as day or vague to the general public is irrelevant-- the legal system exists to draft confusion and vague legislation that keeps lawyers and judges employed. Fact: If hazing is against the law in a state, a collegiate men's organization is not above the law to haze their members no matter how "safely" they perceive the hazing.

Clearly, SAE HQ does not condone these behaviors or the chapter would not be closing. That is also a fact.

So while the good chapters not at UCF must haze the bejesus out of their men to make them true SAEs, that is neither here nor there. This is a thread about UCF SAE, and not other schools Greek Systems, or how they haze.

And I realize that JessXIca is new to the Greek System, but she is also a UCF upperclassman who has been involved with the Greek System prior to joining Alpha Xi through UCF activities. It's a big school, but it's still a small community. I don't think anyone needs sorority tenure to comment on situations occuring at her university.

We're not talking apples and apples here.

If an independent were to die due to an event by an organized group, you can bet that it would be a big deal on campus and in the news.

Normally, though, the Library Club probably won't be throwing a keg party -- well, at most schools.

Yeah so when a group of friends holds a keg party I get it. Someone can leave their house and get in a deadly drunk driving accident, and not expect to have reporters walking into their house uninvited etc. That to me is a problem, when a group is being punished on a sole reason of being an organization that is BS especially if noone was harmed. As for HQ those guys had to have done a lot worse stuff than this. They're just trying to be PC, which unfortunatly so is the rest of this country, I think it's time things got real again.

1.) I can assure you plenty of chapters can side step the law.

2.) Again, you are speaking of hazing like it is some horrible, God awful action. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject.

I might be behind on this notice and if I am I do appologize, But here is the official notice from SAE HQ

http://www.sae.net/index.asp?r=newsr...=115&art_cat=2

LOL OK I am behind, just goes to show I am a slow reader.

It's ok. I love yu anyway :P

I don't think that's true. I think pretty much any media would report where the person got drunk enough to cause the accident -- and depending on the laws of that location, the people who allowed someone to get that drunk could be held accountable.

"The driver had just left a party at..."

It would certainly be true of commercial establishments (bars, restaurants, etc.).

Inspite of what some SAE Members on G C say, it looks like SAE IHQ is starting to hold a no nonsense priority as I read the IHQ Site.

It's a website Tom......not the be all, end all to everything that SAE does. Stop trying to be some investigative know-it-all douchebag. I am well aware of what our "National Policy" states..........because I know that you are referring to me. Everything I have stated is from my point of view or experience. I am not speaking on behalf of SAE nationals......so quit while you are behind.

Say what??
Tom, I know I have never said anything against my National and I do not recall anyone else doing so.

You may be confusing "IMHO/POV" statements vs policy statements.

And from what I have seen here, been told or read elsewhere, most Nationals will hold same no nonsense policy in matters we have seen here.
And we have not seen everything that is going on; both in these matters as well as many others that are going on out there at many other GLO's.

That doesn't make it right.

Hazing is illegal. There are other methods to go about establishing brotherhood bonds-- most things that you consider safe-hazing need only minor modification to follow your own fraternity's policies. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject believing that you are above the law, as well as the policies your own brothers have voted into being. But again, I suppose that is neither here nor there, because you believe you and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies.

i think the problem with most discussions on "hazing" is that you all refuse to agree on a working definition, which renders everything posted invalid

I never said I was above the law at all, nor did I say anything about "policies my own brothers have voted into being" or believing that me and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies. If you can find where I said any of these things or actually commented on what me and my chapter do during pledgeship....i'd love to see it. However, if you are going to sit there and try to put words in my mouth, then you can keep your comments to yourself. I never made any of my comments from a personal perspective...I made them because they are true.

I actually have a very open mind about what goes on...clearly, you don't. I am well aware that hazing is illegal. I am also well aware that many chapters can get away with quite a high degree of things before they actually get into trouble. If you don't believe this, you are only kidding yourself. Do I think it is right for it to be like that? I don't know.....but its nice to have the ability to get out of some trouble IF it arises. You think Alabama SAE (our founding chapter) is going to get shut down for a minor hazing infraction...or because a kid or two got too drunk? Doubt it.

....Can I be you when I grow up? Seriously, you said exactly what I was too fusturated to properly articulate.

And an aside:

I guess I'm too narrowminded to understand why you would want to place someone in harm's way that you claim to care about, or that you want in your bond. I also seem to miss the point of humiliating/degrading someone that you want to join your society.

Well, it certainly appears you have a narrowminded view of the topic. Oh I forgot, hazing has to be degrading/humiliating/harmful.

Thank you

I stand corrected, I should have made myself more clear. I can understand why an organization would want its potential members to be closer and why they would use activities to cultivate that as well as a respect for the letters they hope to eventually wear.

However (and this is the part I should have made more clear), I was referring to specific catagories of the broad defination of "hazing" (the type that tends to get chapters in trouble). I simply don't understand it.

My apologies for the ambiguity.

LOL, you do not have to worry, he is always contrary.:D

He never had a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:(

Backers of hazing are becoming extinct.

Although this makes no sense.....as usual....mostly because you have yet to get a firm grasp on the English language at your old age..........I am going to assume that this should be translated as: "Has he never heard of a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:( "
To this, I would reply : Yes, moron, I have heard of chapters getting removed from campuses. This is a moot point and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

Backers of the proper/traditional way to pledge a fraternity are becoming extinct.

.......and it is destroying the Greek system.

You art so funny and ???

You Cannnot understand, It was so very simple that even A Simpleton could read!

Forgiveth thou....for thou art having thee roughest time deciphering ye posteths.

Trying to figure if you are to funny or to ignorant?

Just being funny or stupid?

Well, everyone or a bunch can make their conclusion.

Did this compute?:o

I agree with macallan

You are correct, Sir!:)
Something that Brother Mac and I figured out in another thread somewhere here in RM

Part, and only part, of the problem is that laws, policies, Acts, POV's et al are themselves so broad and wide.

As are the actions and thoughts of the people they are aimed at.

I have a few comments about that letter. For starters, it's been exactly 6 years since the GHB incident. It happened during Homecoming 2000. I should know because we were doing Homecoming with SAE that year.

Furthermore, the GHB incident wasn't just some brother making and selling the drug in the house. The brother ended up making a lethal dose of GHB which he sold to some Kappa Sigs who were using the drug to help with their work-outs. (a lot of bodybuilders use GHB for this purpose) Two of the brothers were violently ill and another brother was put on life support for days. It was a horrible and sobering experience for the entire UCF Greek community.

Whether you like it or not, the past indiscretions of organizations are always brought up in the future. It happens with companies as well. There are a ton of companies out there who are still paying the price for something that happened many years ago. It does not matter that the people who were involved in the unfortunate incidents are no longer around. People tend to remember negatives more than positives - it's just a fact of life. The best thing a group can do is learn from the mistakes that their older members have made in the past and do their best not to make those mistakes again.

I don't think anyone will truly know what happened at the SAE house that night. But, when you have suspicious activity at the house for the 3rd time in 6 years, it doesn't look good. And the people who determined SAE's fate would, of course, look at the history. Had this been the first time the UCF SAEs had a problem, I'd bet they'd still be on campus right now.

Let this be a lesson to all undergraduates. You might think that what your chapter did 5 or 10 years ago doesn't or shouldn't matter. It does matter. Learn from the mistakes that your brothers and sisters made and don't screw up again.

I'd just like to add that it is incredibly stupid to post something in the media that admits guilt to anything as this letter did. It can so easily be used against you, your brothers, the officers, your Inter/National organization, etc.

Well I mean...at some point you lose all plausable denyability anyway. I don't think that them saying "yeah we did it" is so awful...they did. It's the "but it's not that big of a deal" part...

I found the fact that they were comparing themselves to the modern Germans having to pay repartions for the atrocities of WW2 to be a bit of a stretch. If there are several allegations and incidents within a close span of years it does not matter if you were "12 years old" when the first alleged incident occured. It's called social responsibility and repeated allegations and incidents in the news leads to a pattern of behavior where the older members are going to attract similiar newer members and encourage similiar patterns of behavior.

That being said... Closing a chapter, whatever the reason, is never an easy decision. My sympathies do go out to the members, SAE and the UCF Greek Community. It affects everyone.

That also being said I hope the men of the closed chapter maintain their friendships but at least respect the decision that they are a closed chapter. Holding unofficial events (as we have seen happen at other campuses) with other Greek groups will only lead to further disruption in the UCF Greek System, not to mention the Risk Management issues involved for all concerned. I hope all concerned (closed chapter and active chapters) have the common sense to maintain their friendships and realize that there are to be no parties or activities with "SAE." I'd hate to see a sorority lose recognition or be placed on probabtion for failing to use good judgement.

"University officials said the fraternity admitted to disorderly conduct and alcohol- and drug-related misconduct during an administrative hearing Friday. The university found the fraternity in violation of UCF's policy against hazing."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...home-headlines


6 years until SAE can even think about rejoining the UCF greek community. Ouch.

You and me both. I'd love to see chi omega finally get a house. I'd love even more to see theta get a house, but I think I'm a little bit biased on that subject ;-)

I'm not sure what will happen to the house it's owned by a charatable organization associated with SAE so the question becomes, will they allow another organization to take over (and will any GLO settle for taking something over "in the interum") . I'd imagine that SAE hopes to someday recolonize at UCF, in which case they would probably want the house avaliable.

I feel bad for the guys that have had to uproot and move, especially since not all of them were present for the "incident" but now all of them have to vacate.

Just wanted to throw this out there... My fraternity was founded against the ideals that you are so fond of. What is proper or traditional to one organization is not necessarily proper or traditional for another.

Interesting thread...