I hope you didn't study economics in college, because it taught you nothing. Slavery is ANTI-CAPITALISM, by every sense of the word. Slavery destroyed capitalism and the economy of the south, because it lowered wages. It did well for the wealthy upper-class, but left most in the dirt. If you have a lot of people you aren't paying, it means that those who are free are being paid very little for their work, because someone could get a slave to do that job for free.

Furthermore, one realizes that the Africans put themselves in this spot because the tribes sold rival hostage tribes to slave traders. Earlier in this trade, the Arabs would take the slaves from Africa to Europe, but Europe abolished the trade.

I believe you needed to understand the economical and historical aspects of the situation.

This is difficult to prove. People don't all of a sudden say "oh, these aren't real people so we can enslave them." There must have been plenty of racial feelings waay before slavery began. It may have evolved further to accomodate the slave trade, but it didn't all of a sudden begin to reinforce slaves.

This part of your post supports why slavery was an economic threshold and how the exploitation of cheap, slave labor served to advance capitalist exploits by minimizing input and maximizing output. Even if you don't want to articulate it as "capitalism," the central point is that slavery was about economics and the exploitation of slave labor. [[Of course, it's more "fun" to think about it as racism and use it as an example of racism in North America but what came out of slavery is a better example of racism than the the initial stages of slavery, itself.]]

For instance, isn't capitalism reinforced through the new immigration's exploitation of cheap labor? The wages are kept low so the capitalists can be well-off while those who are forced to sell their labor are paid very little for it. That's just a contemporary spin (and you can arguably add visible race and gender effects to the mix now more than you could 200-300 years ago) but the story is all the same.

But I appreciate your furthering my argument. ;)

All of this means what in reference to the pursuit and exploitation of cheap labor? ;) What's embedded in all of this?


Don't be so quick to get snippy. Your rebuttal isn't sound. ;)


It isn't really difficult to prove but either way you are definitely missing the crux of the argument and misinterpreting what I posted. Start with where I said "The North American racist ideologies" (this distinction is key) and go from there.

Anyway....

I brought up the economic point to provide an additional angle to the "Old South/slavery/symbols of hatred" discussion. As Elephant Walk so eloquently explained, many Southerners (the noncapitalists) were paid very little for their labor if their labor was utilized at all. This is a standard resource/labor market competition threat argument. The "racial hatred" that we always talk about was (at least initially) very much rooted in anger over competiting with the cheap labor of slaves (and freed blacks before and after slavery was abolished). Similar to how many people express anger over low wage Mexican immigrant labor by making racially prejudiced remarks. Of course deliberate immigration isn't the same as being sold into slavery.

We all have to be aware of the differential impact that these symbols (like the Confederate flag) have on people. What one person sees as an expression of Southern heritage, even if it was very much a plantation economy, others view as almost inherently racist. But, it's all about one's standpoint so I'm not quick to shout "bigotry" or "racism" without understanding the other side of the debate.

As a resident of Greenville, and member of ECU's Greek community, I can tell you that this is being blown completely out of proportion.

I think that flag was hanging long before the marchers decided to walk down the street. Although I don't particularly care for someone displaying the Confederate Flag, I do recognize their right to do so.

This entire situation is a direct result of the tension that has been mounting in our city due to the name of a street. They want to change the name of one of the streets that encloses our campus from 5th Street to MLK, Jr. What's the point in changing the street name?! If you want to do something to honor Dr. King, I think we can find something better than a street sign.

point of privelage:

what is commonly called the "battle flag" was actully used as the CSA Naval Jack. The Battle Flag used by the Infantry was more square and red. The Cavalary was bigger (naval jack sized) but still red, not orange. This post was brought to you by the Museum Visit I went on.

Wisdom!

But I also think that those who display a Confederate flag with the most innocent of intentions (heritage, for example) are extremely niave at best or inconsoderate at worst if they don't appreciate how some may interpret the display.

True, and to be even more specific, the "Battle Flag" was the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. It was indeed square and usually had a narrow white border all around. It was incorpotated in the second and third national flags of the CSA (the two flags that replaced the Stars and Bars), much in the same way that it appears in the flag of Mississippi now.

It must be remembered, though, that flags of the Civil War era were typically handmade, and both Union and Conferederate flags showed a great deal of variety in shape, shades of colors and details.

As for the navy jack, what is too often today called "the Battle Flag" (or the Stars and Bars) was the second navy jack -- it was adopted when the second national flag was adopted.

If anyone is looking for good, accurate information on the many, many Confederate flags (the history and use of them, not the various meanings attached to some of them since the Civil War), Flags of the Confederacy is a very good site.

ETA: As I noted, there were often variations among flags. After December 1863, the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee was identical to the CSA naval jack (what Shinerbock calls "the rebel flag") -- i.e., rectangular rather than square and without the white border.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but far too many think the "rebel" flag is the same as the "stars and bars."

Stars and Bars:

http://www.archives.state.al.us/images/natflag1.gif

I definitely agree with you.

I think the point of compromise is to keep the doors of communication open. People on one side shouldn't be so quick to yell "racist" and people on the other side shouldn't be so quick to just put the symbols out there without considering how others perceive it.

Except that the number of stars varied from 7 (as shown) to 13 or more. There's even one example with just one star.

Around here, SE Texas, the 'Stars and Bars' is the Confederate flag that has a field of red and a big blue 'X' going across the middle with white stars in the blue area.

People throughout the country often call that the saltire (X-shaped cross) flag "the Stars and Bars," but it's still wrong. The Stars and Bars is the name for the first national flag of the Confederate States of America, the flag that Shinerbock posted the picture of. It's a common error, but an error nonetheless.

Calling the Battle Flag/Naval Jack "the Stars and Bars" is no more correct than calling the flag of Ohio

http://www.atlasgeo.net/fotw/images/u/us-oh.gif

the Stars and Stripes.

^^^^ Thanks for the info. I learned something new. :)

Thank You DST for posting this and anyone who beleive it was not in economics, they should go back to class.

The common flag used as The Stars and Bars as the Battle Flag of the CFSA was one of many Flags flown by The Troops of the South.

As was explained, the Common Flag that flies is the one with Red, A Blue X with White Stars as the battle flag.

I know I'm late on this thread, but work got busy... anyway, I saw a music video ("Bia Bia") by Little Jon, Ludacris, Chyna White, Too Short, etc, where Ludacris is swimming with a confederate flag. Oh yeah, and on the cover of an Outkast cd, there is a belt buckle with that flag on it. Maybe it was a metaphor for something. As far as Black families, I haven't seen it, but then again I haven't been everywhere down south.

Well this is a bit random but worth mentioning. In 2001 when the whole South Carolina Battle Flag controversy was making the national news many Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo Cook-Off teams began flying the Battle Flag as a show of support. Well someone complained and the display of any Confederate Battle Flag at the Rodeo Cook-Off has been subsequently banned. However, this became big news when people realized that a well known, all black team had been using the battle flag as their sites theme for years. I mean they had it on everything, their tent, front, pit, napkins, plates, cups, koozies, aprons, t-shirts, even a brand for their meat. That being said you can still see plenty of other flags with meaning flying high at the cook-off most notably Bonnie Blue and the Come And Take It flag.

An aside, but as memory serves, this is the only of the 50 state flags that is a pennant.

I have seen it; in fact, I saw a Black man carrying a full-sized Battle Flag down the street just last week. I have no idea why he was carrying it -- he seemed to be walking to his car from somewhere.

Just goes to show how complex an issue this can be.

As an aside, and for what's its worth, the Bonnie Blue flag was never an official Confederate flag. It was raised in Mississippi to declare succession. The single star was a symbol of state sovereignty.

The Bonnie Blue Flag originated with the brief Republic of West Florida (comprising territory in parts of what is now Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana) in the early 1800s, and it influenced the Lone Star flag of Texas and the Bear flag of California (and perhaps the flag of North Carolina as well). The popularity of the flag during the Civil War was largely the result of the song "The Bonnie Blue Flag" ("We Are a Band of Brothers"), written to commemorate the raising of the flag in Jackson when Mississippi succeded.

Give that dog a bone! (Although technically the notch in the fly end makes it a burgee, not a pennant.)

What do the stars on Ohio's flag mean? Are they for the counties?

According to the official description, "[t]he thirteen stars grouped around the "O" represent the original states of the United States and the four stars added to the peak of the triangle symbolize that Ohio was the seventeenth state admitted to the union."

That being said you can still see plenty of other flags with meaning flying high at the cook-off most notably Bonnie Blue and the Come And Take It flag.

I don’t think in any of my posts I have mentioned anything of the confederacy. The first official flag of Texas was the Burnet flag. It was basically identical to Bonnie Blue except it had a gold star. Due to Bonnie Blue’s popularity many chose to emulate it by having a white star on their Burnet flag. When I see Bonnie Blue I think of states rights. Why you felt the need to “correct” me I'll never know. Especially since the two flags I mentioned were flags of the Texas Revolution. Hence their meaning. And on a side note the Come And Take It flag has a….single star. See a pattern? We won our war and will fly our flags.

/edit: before anyone corrects me I do understand that Bonnie Blue predates the Texas Revolution.

Unless they've changed it since I lived there, Ohio has 88 counties.

I've never liked that flag.

I am NOT even going to read all of this thread. I am only going to point out that this is the SAME organization that those lost souls at Howard chartered recently?

I believe you’re thinking of Pi Kappa Alpha.

Thank you. I stand corrected. Carry on!

Bro. Jackson was also a Prince Hall Mason as was his grandfather PGM John Wesley Dobbs...

It sounds to me that the young man who is trying to paint Bro. Jackson as a racist and wants to 'get out of Atlanta' just does not like the 'diversity' Atlanta has to offer.

I came back just in time. I'm not painting Jackson as anything. Was he racist? I have no idea. Did he do things that many considered racist? Yes.

Heres my take on Jackson: He pushed so hard against the Lester Maddox's of the world, that he pursued his goals beyond equality. I think he wanted black people to control Atlanta, and for black businesses to be the most successful in Atlanta. Unfortunately, while fighting whatever inequality was left behind following the civil rights era, he and others refused to notice what was happening to the city, and refused to blame the black community for many of the problems.

He probably did some good things for Atlanta, but he also did some pretty bad things as well. Thus, many people were upset by tacking his name onto Hartsfield Airport.

*Another note, about the confederate flag...I, and most everyone I know, would think a black guy flying the confederate flag was awesome. Not because it is a novelty thing, but rather because here is somebody, who although a different race, believes in and takes pride in our (and likely his) southern heritage. Obviously people do fly it for racist reasons, but I think if it were generally a race thing, white people would be upset at blacks flying it. People need to realize that just because individuals or groups protest or dislike things that are involved in black culture does not make them racist.

Take another Economics class.

-Rudey
--And then start making sense.

Sure you did, but you are correct that you never said that the Bonnie Blue flag was a Confederate flag.
My comment was meant as a general one, using your reference to the Bonnie Blue flag simply since it was the most recent one.

Given the general context of this thread is the use (misuse?) of Confederate flags, and given that quite a few people do think of the Bonnie Blue flag as a Confederate flag, and not without reason, it seemed like a clarification worth making. That is all.

So where's the racism? It reads like he wanted to challenge the status quo and empower a community of people that had been in disproportionate poverty, underemployment, and poor education. One city in this country where blacks are successful business owners and are advancing hardly constitutes a system of racism (including actions and ideologies) where thousands to millions of people are given unequal life chances. Whites weren't given the short end of the stick in all of this--the playing field was just leveled.

You said "racist"--but now you all backtracking and saying he did things that "many" considered "racist." I hate it when people throw catch phrases and terms around and have absolutely no basis for it.

I wish this country would put that flag to rest. It serves no purpose but to intimidate people of color. I hate that flag.:mad:

AGREED.

I don't understand why people say it represents Southern pride. What, that you're proud your region fought to keep slavery legal?

Even if it *did* represent Southern pride, it doesn't anymore. The swastika was used for tons of things before the Nazis took it... so does that mean it's okay to use? No, it's become a hateful symbol in today's culture.

The Confederate Flag is pointless and racist. If people want to fly it, fine, but I'm going to assume that they're a bigot, because that's what it means to me (and many other people).

PS: We're all Americans -- why try to seperate yourselves because you're from the South? Does that make you better than everyone else? I mean, I don't have a flag of California hanging on my wall.

LOL. The California flag. Too funny. :D

Wow. I didn't know the swastika was used before the Nazis used it. Kool. I learned something.

P.S. Well said.:) Strong sorority too.:D

Yep, this is from about.com:

"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."

Hey, thanks a lot.:)

When you favor black business over white business, because they are owned by blacks, thats racism. When you attempt to stack the city's boards and comm. with black people, thats probably racism. I'll refrain again from really calling him a racist, because I don't know what his motivations were. However, to many at the time, he seemed to heighten racial tension through is apparently biased actions. As for throwing around the term "racist," I really don't need a lecture on it. After all, as a conservative on this board, I get called racist for simply saying things against affirmative action. There are probably better communities who should be served with your comments on the use of the term "racist"...

Regarding the flag, it obviously has purpose other than "intimidating" black people. Saying otherwise is just stupid.

The swastika was the pre-WWII emblem of the 45th Infantry Division.

Oh, do you mean the Rainbow Division?:D

The so called Swastka was used years before Hitler by the American Indian for Ritual Purposes.

No matter how much somthing may be disliked, it is still HISTORY and History will not dissapear will it? It cannot be changed as it happened.

I can understand the hatred of the Nazia Flag sort of, it has more History for the symbol than many think.

Do any of us think that The American Flag years back was loved by the British? Is it so loved today by others in the world?

Symbol yes, but it is also History no matter what. It is not going away. History never does.

Another interesting thread that I do not believe I just spent over ten minutes reading....

A few things here
Flags and Battle Flags:
http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/flag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_o...tes_of_America

There is new, on going research into information on Blacks serving in the CSA Army. Pick up back copies of Civil War News ( Not sure if on web site www.civilwarnews.com )

As for 'use' of the CSA flag....IMHO, it was miss used after the War Between the States. Many a good man, boy, woman and girl ( yes, women did fight in the war ) fought, bled, and died along side their friends and statesman under it. All were Americans. Most of the soldiers, on the fields of battle, did not care about nor perhaps understand the larger politices or economice issuies of the war. they were fighting for their towns, their states, their friends. General Lee even believed that the slaves should have been freed.
And in some ways, I believe that many groups today are using it fpr purposes of their own making and needs.

As for today, I have rather mixed feelings. I go down to FL and no one says anything about their state flag. Look at it with some care..can cause you to wonder.......

The perseption of it use falls on the people who see it and the people who use it.

Now, in the case that this thread started with if the flag was NOT up until the march/activity was about to start my belief is that the people who hung were out to make trouble.

I have been to many Reenactments, both in the North and in the South, and I never have heard or seen anything being said or done 'wrong' in any of the camps. Many reencators go into roles-live and speak as if they are in the 1800's. And I have seen both women and black soldiers on both sides.

Several years ago, in the Mid-west, a "group" thought that it would have a march during a reenactment. Somehow got it into their minds that the CSA troops would join them.

What happen was not their dream but a nightmare.

News of this march got into the camps. The reenactment came to a stop as the camps first gathered in their areas and then joined up behind their combined flag honor guards. The troops all had their "pig-stickers" fixed and locked.

The "group" took one look and ran or fled for hills.

Everyone else was very happy.

Time for dinner-where in is that Dinner thread.......

Thank You, a very good post and a big learning lesson to many who are so young and have no clue about the Civil War per say!

It was not all about "Gone With The Wind".

While I have said for years, it was economics there are many who will argue about it.

It is also amazing "How Many Slaves" stayed with their White Families and did fight for the Rebs in the Civil War.

For Robert E. Lee, He was one of the finest Generals of His time. I am glad to be related to Him! If all Historians will check it out they a will find it true.

But if you want to press the slavery issue then actually check out about which you speak. Then come back and disscus it properly.

Thanks,

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It's wrong, but you're still entitled to it.:confused: