The topic I resonded to was hazing, I know the difference between hazing and pledging- do you?

You obviously don't know the difference according to most universities and national fraternities. All of the things I've listed are considered hazing at some if not all universities and by HQ.

Its pretty clear that you actually don't know the difference. Lineups, cleaning, dress codes, etc. are considered hazing now if I am not mistakened. I don't see someone filing a law suit or kicking chapters off campus for things like that.

oh wow.

even mandatory study hours at some universities is considered hazing

For the sake of repeating what some don't seem to grasp, the definition(s) of hazing usually weren't made by national organizations or their chapters, but rather by lawmakers and university administrators, often as a kneejerk reaction to some lawsuit over a more serious situation. They simply used a scattergun approach and declared everything they could think of as hazing.

Since insurance companies don't insure things that are "illegal," the organizations have to cover their -- uh, backsides in terms of liability.

It really isn't a matter of what I think, what you think or what they think -- when it's the law there's really no recourse.

I know a lot of national officers, division officers and advisors. None of them want to be a negative force for chapters and members, there just isn't any choice. They didn't pass the laws, but they absolutely have to obey them.

There are at least two dynamics here -- one corporate and one personal.

As an advisor or alumni officer, there's no way that I will/can overlook proscribed behavior. First, because the actions of one chapter can have a devistating on the organization as a whole, and second (even with insurance), I can't allow myself to become liable for the actions of a group of undergraduates that could have devistating effects on my family.

Hazing as defined by member education programs and hazing defined by the law is different.

Hazing by law: Denying food, water...exposure to heat/cold...physical abuse

Hazing by campus/HQ: The above, and also things like personal favors, cleaning, wearing a coat and tie to class...I don't see where those things are insurance liabilities or against the law.

If it were only that simple. Hazing, as defined by law, varries from state to state and sometimes smaller governmental units.

There is no one or single set of definitions, and therein lies a large part of the reason for such wide interpretations of what constitutes hazing.

Well you're absolutely right that it varies. However, I have yet to see state laws banning coat and tie.

One can form a definition for most anything be it pledging or hazing. However, I am referring to blatant forms of hazing resulting in criminal penalties, lawsuits, expulsion, revocation of chapters etc which contribute overall to a hazing environment and results in the abuse or death of potential initiates. That is what most national greek organizations are being faced with because those members are reluctant to break with their tired traditions which result in adverse consequences and putting the national organizations at risk.

While there is little data on this subject I imagine, I would guess the huge majority of hazing incidents involve things like what we're talking about. They involve lineups, dress codes, and athletic practices. I think the incidents where pledges are being beat are pretty uncommon. While the big incidents are the only ones that generally result in lawsuits and criminal charges, this little stuff is probably the reason for most University and HQ punishments.

We may differ in opinion, but I have talked to several older alumni from different schools, my dad and his pledge brothers (also all at UT)....and never have they mentioned being beaten, put in extremely dangerous situations, or any other things that I could see you considering "blatant" forms of hazing. I don't think these type things are longstanding traditions at all. Lineups, house cleans, early morning house calls, required dress, etc. etc. are what I have come to see as traditions that have been gonig on for a very long time.

I joined a local non-greek house at Whittier College that hazed the hell out of me. Hazing included physical calisthenics, getting hosed down with water and being forced to "play" in the mud, one ceremonial paddling that hurt like a bitch, an "orientation test" (being dropped in the middle of nowhere with pledge brothers and given $20 to get home), and doing offical greetings in public (lining up as a class and shouting "GOOD AFTERNOON BROTHER SO AND SO!" in unison in a public setting like a dining hall), line ups and isolated interrogations.

The "societies" at Whittier got away with all of this with implicit knowledge of the school because they were the big donors! Whittier is a small private school and it's the Society alumni that donate, in exchange the administration looks the otherway during blatent hazing situations. All the aforemented hazing happened ON CAMPUS (minus the orientation test), some Societies even had their pledges construct a beer sofa on the quad with empty cans that they had drank.

I joined Sigma Nu because of it's foundation on honor and non-hazing. Of course candidates are required to know the history of the fraternity but that doesn't mean we need to line up pledges and drill them, screaming at them when they slip up a word or two of the open creed. Line ups are totally ridiculous and create robots, not leaders. Pledges should be self-motivated. If a pledge isn't holding his weight and participating in his own fraternal education then that is what the Depledgement option is for.

Kyle, while some of that may be banned, I don't really see what the problem of most/any of it is. Seems to me all those things had relevant points. We did many things similar to all of those, and while difficult, they were also fun. People often speak about how hazing harms self esteem. "Hazing," done correctly, builds both brotherhood and personal confidence. It takes strong people and makes them into responsible and confident adults. My personal opinion is that if you can't handle it, don't pledge. There are obviously other places you can go if you want an easy walkthrough pledgeship.

Shiner-After seeing many of your comments, after a very long, hot, and tiring day at work, my first thought is that you may truly believe that what was done in say the 1800's is the only way to do things.

The trouble is at all too often "Hazing" is done just because.....NOT to build "Brotherhood" and "Personal confidence" ( which from your own prior posts is only your chapter house and NOT your National group).

All too often these days people get hurt or worse. Which is where the Risk Coverage that you love to be covered by your Nation comes into play.

But since Nations do not enjoy paying High premiums, that is where Risk Management comes in.

My old chapter, back in the day, came very close to crossing the line and we saw it, understood it and STOPPED it. We understood that while some negitives can be, if used in small amounts (like a line-up), one is far better to use positive matters.
And the reason that my house is now occupied by the Sigma Nu's ( I have met them and they are nice but...IN MY HOUSE LOL) is that they did not see it, understand it nor did they stop it.

Chapter houses of GLO, or any living group for that matter have to be smarter on how they handle personall matters. Just like the real world that is facing them down the road. Just like Law School for you Shiner and beyond.

Time for dinner and some very cold water.....

As we've mentioned many times before, the hazing in Southern chapters is primarily to build values (that one should have anyways before the fraternity and so therefore not difficult).

Jon, I understand much of what you're saying. As a former risk director for our IFC, I know the situation universities and HQ's are in. However, I don't feel that covering their bases is an adequate reason for a lot of the rules they impose. Much of it has little to do with physical hazing, and more on the idea of protecting self esteem. Basically, this is what I think should be done. I think HQ's should obviously be against hazing, but should take action only when the hazing is dangerous. The same with the Universities. Basically my problem is not with them covering their ass, but rather with the general sentiment coming from our HQ's and Universities. I don't want them to go "We recognize the value of beating kids," but I would like to see the end of them interpreting pledges as some fragile impressionable youth they have to protect from emotional damage. These guys are men, and they should be treated as such. Another reason I argue for the value of hazing is that many on this site really don't understand that it does work. Ask the military. Ask politicians, lawyers, doctors, and our fathers. I'm not asking that we be given free reign to beat the crap out of kids, I'm simply asking to not get in trouble for making pledgeship a journey rather than cakewalk. I think pledges should come out of pledgeship as changed, fraternity men. Thats how we operate, and we consistantly see our new brothers have more confidence,more loyalty to one another, better manners and improved social ability.

On another note, a lot of people accuse us "fratty" posters of wanting to return to the 1800s, or 1950's, or whatever. You're not entirely wrong. Sure some things are better, but many things are not. I wish we had the respect for one another we had during those times. I wish the personal responsibility of earlier times existed today. I long for lower crime and better social etiquette. Just because things bring about diversity or are "progressive," does not make them good for society. So while I obviously recognize improvements we've made from previous times, I also recognize where our society has declined.

Exactly....

So bringing back some sort of segregation to limit diversity is going to improve something? I don't think so. As one of a very few members who actually remembers the 50's (I don't think any of us were here in the 1800's), things are a hell of a lot better today.

Medicine has improved giving us longer lives and better lifestyle, our kids don't worry about global nuclear war and have disaster drills sitting in the hallways of their schools covering their heads with their hands, technology has given us better appliances, better transportation and a lot of other things. We are, as a whole, better educated and much better off economically.

As for respect, if there's less now (and there well may be), I believe that has more to due with the highly competitive nature of our society than anything having to do with diversity. Peoples lives and professional careers are much more intense. I can't prove it, but my feeling is that, because of many of the factors above, we're much more driven and take less time for "neighborhood" stuff. That's not diversity.

I suppose there are some things that are worse, but I'm having trouble thinking of them.

Heck no! They just worry about their parents going to work and not coming home because terrorists blew up the building!

In all seriousness, I remember thinking one day how cool it was that little kids were looking at the "fallout shelter" signs and having no clue what they were, not too soon after that 9/11 happened. We're never going to be free of danger totally.

Sorry to hijack, but I thought I would get that one before someone else did and was a lot meaner about it.

Trust me, we knew what they were.

Sure, there will always be something to worry about...but the doctrine of two or three "superpowers" overbuilding their nuclear capacity to the point of destroying everything on earth two or three times over, and the spectre of Kruschev banging his shoe on a podium yelling "We will bury you," was pretty terrifying for a kid.

I meant little kids NOW, silly. :)

AhHa!

I understand now what you are saying, and agree completely.

I hope they finally got rid of those big containers of water and stale crackers that used to be in the fallout shelters, too.

I have to admit that watching news reports with folks in Israel running into shelters brought back some bad memories.

To be fair though, that whole "duck and cover" thing was just to make people feel better. I watched a video in my history class from the time, and they had kids ducking under raincoats in gutters. Everyone was going to be blown to little glowing bits anyway.


/Magic lead-lined raincoats of steel?

I agree. It may have made the parents feel better, but it was scary as hell for a lot of the kids.

I think it's interesting that those same air raid/missle sirens are now Tornado sirens (at least in this part of the country) I get weirded out in St. Louis where their sirens are electronic and can broadcast voice messages.

I was thinking about "Air Raid Sirens" while I was posting earlier. They could scare the heck out of a person if they didn't realize that it was noon on Friday when they were always tested when I was growing up.

As for the electronic voice, when I'm inside, I can understand it about as well as the electronic voice in the train at the Atlanta airport -- or a bus driver.

Yeah, I never even heard the sirens inside a classroom, thus proving how safe I was while at SLU. Even outside you can't understand because they overlap as they echo and go off throughout the city.

I have pretty good siren-radar so to speak. It can be 3 in the morning at home and I'll be fast asleep but sirens go off and BAM I'm up. I consider it a good survival technique for Central Illinois.

Not to pull away from this topic?

But, in the LXA Cross and Creseant concerning R M, there were 23 three Chapters or Colonies that were Censored, Suspened, or Closed.

One being Mu, The University of Cal.

It has come down to a true fact-Insurance, economics and public relations with either the City/Town or College.

I imagine by the time my kids go to college, fraternities will simply be clubs. They'll probably meet for chapter at a classroom on campus, hold hands, talk about brotherhood, and go home. Seems to be going that way.

Believe it or not just a few months ago a whole shelter was found under one the the East River Bridges in NYC. And the stuff was still sealed......

I do consider us to be the final fratty generation. It's too bad.

I don't think so. You guys might be from the south, where hazing is a little more... well, more. But In the north, we're sometimes just as frat-tastic without the hazing. It's almost like Miller lite - great taste, less filling, and so on.

I was "hazed." Not as bad as my chapter used to haze, but still. My chapter, while I was there, put an end to the hazing, partly because of internal pressures but more because of pressure from our IHQ. It's been interesting, seeing the difference from my class to the newest classes, where you can see the different degrees of hazing. The newer girls seem to respect each other more. When I was initiated, I didn't respect the girls I was initiated with nor did I respect those that initiated me. So how does hazing create respect? It's all a show - when I showed respect to older sisters, I was secretly envisioning myself punching them in the face. It's not just "a walk in the park," there still is a lot of personal responsibility. Even more so.

Used to be, if a new member didn't meet responsibilities, they'd be punished. Now, if a new member doesn't meet responsibilities, her membership will be reviewed and if it's bad enough, revoked. I'd 100% rather deal with a punishment than be KICKED OUT. A punishment is like... 4 extra hours a week of study tables or something... not being removed from the chapter completely. Or facing other punishments that chapter members get, like losing social privileges. That, I think, is more of an encouragement to get your stuff done than being hazed is.

Kyle -- well said.

Kyle -

Excellent post and I totally agree.

Kyle, one, that is a great verse, but has very little relevance. If anything, you should speak to national HQ, who is more than willing to sacrifice a long tradition of Christian ideals for a little political correctness.

Also, your POW comments are completely idiotic. People like you continue to act as though pledges who are "hazed" are treated like prisoners, which they are obviously not. They have tasks to perform, God forbid you push anyone in this day and age. I'd hate to shatter the self esteem of these fragile 18 year old boys. Its not like they'll encounter anything in life they'll need confidence for. So yeah, making them go through difficult things to establish confidence and loyalty is worthless. I'm sure our nation's military training has no value either.

I'm glad you found some place you enjoy. However, I hope my chapter still continually chooses to make pledges earn their RIGHT to wear our letters. To stop doing so would be disrespectful to the great men who have come before us. In questioning our practices, all I need to do is to ask the following questions:
1) Does it have a purpose? Yes, it always does.
2) Does it work? Yes, our pledges are loyal to each other, love the organization, and are more confident in their abilities.
3) What becomes of those who go through pledgeship? They become very successful people, including businessmen, militarly leaders, congressmen and people like my father.

Fraternities are not for everyone. If a student needs reassurance and coddling, tell him to call his mother, not to go through rush. Fraternity life here isn't for the weak of spirit.

(From worst hazing stories thread)


I'm just wondering what the purpose of this is??? I don't see how scrubbing with toothbrushes and then eating food off the floor behind a toilet is helpful, but maybe that's just me.

-J

PS...Kyle, I agree with your post as well

There's a reason why it's the "worst" hazing stories thread, and not the best. Because, gasp, hazing is bad.

If hazing was so great, why would it be illegal in several states, if not all of them? I hope people that haze realize this. We worry so much about being busted for underage drinking and so on, and how that's going to affect our fraternal life, but what about being busted for HAZING? We're talking multi-million dollar lawsuits, jail time, and a revoked charter, not a revoked driver's license and a DUI course.

As for the breakfast story, it is neither dangerous nor without point. Its not like they eat it with their face, we simply have them put in on the ground and then pick it up to eat it. Trust me, generally whatever they eat off is cleaner than most anything in the fraternity house, hence the point. Nobody has ever gotten sick, or anything of the sort. It isn't even gross to watch, especially since they've been cleaning for the last few hours. I don't know if they even do it anymore, but I hope they do. It was always done early in pledgeship, and it gives the pledge a personal reason for working hard on their tasks. The point of this, which is explained to them, is that when they clean, they're not just cleaning for us, but for them as well. It may be there house one day, and we want them to take pride in their efforts to keep it in good shape.