Soror, check your PM...;)

enigma_AKA

I apologize if my post made it sound like I was saying that the Eastern Orthodox Church is a Protestant group. I am saying that many Protestant groups in my area do not recognize Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, or various other forms of Christianity as being part of Christianity - not only do they disagree with parts of their doctrine, they consider them outside of the realm of "acceptable" Christianity.

I just presented a seminar at my parents' home church (Protestant). I was talking about different types of prayer than the congregants were used to. Then a woman spoke up, saying, "This sounds awfully Catholic to me" or something to that effect. After that, the seminar took a turn for the worse only I had the support of the pastor (who recognizes all sects of Christianity) so it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

Before I went in, I knew that I was speaking on a topic that had very distinct Catholic elements but I knew it was the right message to give this particular church. My roommate (Roman Catholic) and I constantly defend ourselves at this seminary where the general view is that non-Protestants are "misled." *SMH*

DSTRen13, no offense taken. :)

I am a kappa sigma and I would have to say that it is understood during pledging and initiaition that our fraternity is founded on christian principals and a belief in GOD......Steven Alonzo Jackson revised our ritual and added components to do so....and to my chi omega friend.....the four sisters approached Dr. Richardson and with the help of his brothers he helped the women organize the "first finest forever" chi omegas

Well from what I've seen I don't see why this should be a problem. If it is an organization based on Christian ideals, and the members really care about that, they probably should only have Christian members. For greek systems where this is very common, like those in the Midwest or South, most students probably profess to be Christians, so I doubt this is much of an issue. Meanwhile, on Western or more urban campuses, there is probably likely to be openness to having someone who believes differently, so that shouldnt be a problem either. I realize this is a generalization, but I personally haven't seen too many incidents where it is really that much of an issue. In either situation (or one in between) I think the members interpretation of what the ideals of their organization are should decide who is allowed in.

I thought "First, Finest, Forever" was ADPi's slogan?

You'd be correct.


And as far as this whole conversation goes, I'm an atheist, and I'm also an initiated member of Alpha Delta Pi. Most GLOs are based on the idea of "Christian Principles". So basically, GLOs are based on what is accepted as a social norm (i.e., don't kill, don't steal, etc.). My lack of belief in a higher power has not in any way detracted from my time in ADPi.

"Love one another" is a Christian principle. That doesn't mean if you're Jewish or Buddhist you have to hate everyone's guts for fear of being mistaken for a Christian. :)

As a Roman Catholic myself, I would take offense to that, if I didn't see the humor in it.... :D

.................................

Ironic, since the Protestant Reformation (led by Martin Luther) references those groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church, which until then was considered the universal church. In fact, some "old-line" Catholics believe Protestants have basically "lost their way" and that the only way to salvation is for them to basically return to the "one true Faith". The Church as an institution, however, has modified their stance on that over the years.

Yeah, nowadays it's "We're all Christians" and while it would be better if they were Catholic, they're following Christ and that's what matters.


/Loves JPII and Benedict isn't as bad as some people were afraid he would be

Benedict was only elected to protect him from investigations.

Not all Christians claim that Jesus was/is divine. Furthermore, there has never been any scripitual evidence (i'm discounting a forced mistranslation of Genesis) that "trinity" is "real." (I used quotes b/c I'm not Christian)

Yes, they do. Hence, CHRISTian.

Please, name one denomination that doesn't.

Nicea/Chal whatever councils were designed to gain political control for Constitine and his Bishops.

Unitarian Universialist. Right there in the name. Unitarian. Not Trinitarian.

The post above responses to this.

For example, King's Chapel in Boston. They edited the book of common prayer to become "Anglican in worship, Congregasional in polity, and Unitarian in Theology."

During the reformation, many Unitarians were burnt at the stake for being the wrong kind of Christian.

The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations does not claim to be christian. YOu don't have to be christian to be a UU.

You just agreed with AlphaFrog, you know that? She said that Christian denominations DO all view Jesus as divine, and then challenged you to provide the name of one Christian denomination that doesn't. The example you provided is not a Christian denomination. So, the two of you are pretty much on the same page.

I hate that I helped perpetuate this hijacking. The thread is about Atheism and membership, not about the specifics of different religions. I'm all for an intelligent discussion about such differences, but perhaps that should be its own thread... maybe in Chit Chat?

Back on topic, I think the question of what each member's religious preference is should be an issue to be dealt with only by that member. If someone is Atheist and joins a group that requires, for example, oaths to be sworn over a Bible, then it is up to that person to decide whether he/she is comfortable with that. If the person is a good brother/sister, it shouldn't matter to the chapter whether or not he/she prays and if so, to whom. Just my two cents.

*** from the Creed of Alpha Delta Pi***
" . . . I believe that the principles established by our founders in 1851 are enduring attributes exemplifying the highest ideals of Christian womanhood,. . . "

So with that being said I wouldn't "evangelize" anyone because I am an adpi, I would "evangelize" someone because I am a Christian.

I am sure that most people have had religious conversations with their sisters or brothers, and I don't feel that because I am a Christian I am not suppose to discuss my beliefs with a professed atheist who also believes that the founders were Christian.

So, my opinion on this thread is YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A CHRISTIAN TO BE IN A "Christian" society, but it would probably be easier if you believed in Christian ideals.

(edited for spelling errors)

As has been said before, there's not really any difference between "Christian ideals" and just being a plain old good person. Don't lie, don't steal, don't murder. Really, there's really no difference between Christian ideals and good 'ole clean living and being a good person.

Well the Cathars did for one, which is why the Church went after them.... but on a more modern note many denomonations that follow Gnostic teachings believe in the divinity of Jesus, but not that he was divine - or more simply that he was divinly created and guided, but not he himself of God...

Like I said before, name one. "Many denominations" doesn't help the cause. I could say "Many denominations drink gerbil blood and sacrifice emus on Tuesdays", but it doesn't mean anything, because you still haven't named anyone spesific.

ETA: And I'm talking on this side of Lincoln's assassination, not when people thought the Earth was flat.

This is a bit of a hot-button topic, but here's my worthless opinion.

I'm not sure why an atheist would WANT to join an organization that proclaims itself to following a certain faith. When I was chapter vice-president we had an atheist associate who complained non-stop about our creed and associate ceremony mentioning Jesus and the Bible as ideals. Finally we had to ask him why he would join an organization whose ideals he disagreed with. He was let go because the problem snowballed as he became more upset and personally I was glad to see him go (last I heard he was a huge drug fiend after flunking out of college... have a nice day).

As a Christian would it make sense for me to join an atheist group? Of course not. I think they have their right to exist, so I don't bother them. This is just my view.

I don't think anyone should be quarantined or banned because of their beliefs, but that person should know what they're getting themselves into before spouting off about "forcing beliefs" on them. No one MADE them decide to join.

Many Greek-letter groups were founded by Christian ministers and Christianity was a central impulse motivating them in their ventures, whether Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, etc. Altough almost all groups don't officially discriminate according to creed, in many groups there still is a strong Christian ethos. These are not side issues but they are indicative of the what these groups are. Similarly, there are historically Jewish and non-sectarian groups(Jew-Gentile) and general non-sectarian. One of the genius of the Greek-letter system is that there is something for everyone. And it also highlights the fact that Greek-letter groups are about more than wine,women(or men) and song;they were founded on much deeper principles which are often obscured.

Follow or adhere to a particular faith... yeah I can see that as an issue - but to follow the ideals/virtues/tennets of a faith that are common to many others... why not? After all they aren't joining because of the faith, but because of the ideals the org. espouses...

Funny thing is he might not have had a problem up here, after all we've had many athiests, agnostics, and non-Christians join the Brotherhood ~ basically because we are careful to explain that while our Creed and AM ceremony are based on Christianity, it is the virtues espoused by Jesus and the Bible not the faith the we care more about... you can respect and follow the ideals without following the faith...

Why wouldn't it make sense? I have no problem joining an atheist group or organization as long as I agree with their goal/work and they don't try to push their belief in no God on me...

Well that all depends though doesn't it - afterall in the example you brought up the young man didn't seek to join a Christian organization, but rather an organization that looked to and respected Christian virtues as it's guide... if this distinction had been made clear to him and he rejected and disrespected these virtues (regardless of his feelings about the faith) then he obviously didn't belong.

I myself will admit that I have felt uncomfortable with the emphasis that some chapters place the Christian faith (or even a particular denomonation) as the actual message and mission of the Fraternity ~ when really Christianity is only the foundation, not the totality.

I don't really keep up on it myself, as I don't particularlly care to follow or track the myriad of Protestant denomonations, sects, and cults out there (I'm more of a Mediaeval/Early Church kinda guy) but the rejection of the divinity or humanity of Jesus was huge issue in the early Church because of Gnostic teachings..

But as for modern cases, there are some United Church groups (up here in Canada) that do not believe Jesus was God because it is impossible for something infinite (God) to be contained in something finite (Man/Jesus); and for example Unitarians don't believe that he was Divine, but the divinely inspired and greatest prophet of God... as for the plethora of little Churches run out of storefronts/warehouses/tents/people's basements who can really say as they represent so many different interpretations of Christianity...

Regardless of waht anyone says, no one is forced to join a certain group.

If it is not for them then they can leave and find what they beleive somewhere else.

I just hope it is before they are Initiated.

This is what I'm getting at. We never told this guy "You HAVE to be Christian to be a member!" He made it a point to speak out against what was mentioned in our associate ceremony and say that it was infringing on HIS beliefs (or non-belief, if you prefer). I would NEVER change the wording in our associate ceremony, which has been around longer than I have, for one single guy who has a problem worthy of the ACLU.

I myself follow no specific denomination of Christianity. Our chapter was primarily Catholic, but there were also members who were of other faiths. When referring to an "atheist group" I meant a group that exists specifically to promote atheism. As a Christian it would make no sense for me to join such a group. My wording was misleading and I should have been more clear. My fault on that one.

May I quote "scripture"?

From the Creed Of Lambda Chi Alpha:
"We believe in Lambda Chi Alpha, and its traditions, principles, and ideals. The crescent is our symbol...and cross is our guide..."

"RESOLUTION APPROVED BY THE FORTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY, DENVER, COLORADO, 2002.
A Mandatory Resolution Regarding Discrimination
Be it resolved that membership selection on the basis of race, creed, color, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability has no place within Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity. The Lambda Chi Alpha Fraternity, therefore, condemns all discrimination and will actively seek to prevent it in all of its Chapters/Colonies."

From the American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition:
creed n. 1. A formal statement of religious belief; confession of faith. 2. A system of belief, principles, or opinions. , Lat. credo, I believe.

In ZAX,
Jono

Tri Delta is based in the Christian tradition and bears several Christian references, but that didn't stop our Jewish girls from joining and professing their love and loyalty to Tri Delta. I just think it's a matter of personal feelings. If you're comfortable joining a group with Christian traditions without being Christian, then it shouldn't be a problem! :D

Well, we never told this guy he couldn't join. It was he who made it a point to say that our associate ceremony mentioning the Bible was infringing on his rights. I say if he wanted it changed he should have gone somewhere else. That was about a decade ago and I'm still glad he dropped.

Then it was His decission wasn't it, as well it should be!

Jono tell Me if I am wrong, but it is not Total Christian Principles that Members of LXA Join, but for the Fellow Ship of Being With Brothers and it is not forced upon them.

The original question asked, "Would your fraternity/sorority allow initiation of a declared Atheist?", and I believe I answered that question as far as Lambda Chi Alpha is concerned.

Well, our national fraternity probably has a similar non discrimination policy, but thankfully we don't follow it in our chapter.

^^exalt.

I have a feeling that our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters might disagree with the suggestion that the Roman Catholic Church was the universal church prior to the Reformation.

What's with all the religious debate today?? Did someone take an extra shot of Holy Spirit last night?

Prior to that schism then? The RCC was the only real Western Church, just as the Orthodox were the only real Eastern Church. They've gotten along and fought at different times throughout the years. But as far as what most people consider "Western Civ." goes, the RCC was it.

/Took a Byzantine history class, am well aware that "western" doesn't always mean what we think it means.