Exactly.

-Rudey

did you see this? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

Did you read that report at www.WhatDoesThatHaveToDoWithAnything.com?

-Rudey

Perhaps they are remaining silent because they are still subjects of a criminal investigation and their lawyers have properly instructed them to keep their mouths closed in public. Perhaps they are silent because they've already said what they can -- that what has been alleged didn't happen. Perhaps they are all protecting each other or perhaps they've already told the truth and many in the public refuse to believe it. Perhaps it's a bit risky to read too much into their silence.

Quote:

The resignation of the award winning coach wouldn't have been necessary if they were completely innocent.

These two comments get to the heart of much of what has gone on. Not only is there a major social class and race divide problem being played out, but also a major town vs. gown divide problem. Rightly or wrongly, Duke is viewed as a bastion of elitism in a working class town. Rightly or wrongly, the members of the LAX team have been viewed for quite some time (long before this latest incident) as the out-of-control poster boys for class favoritism and looking-the-other-way at Duke. Fairly or unfairly, past behaviors made it pretty easy for many in Durham to believe the worst of the LAX team. Fairly or unfairly, the coach -- who with the University leadership probably should have done something about team discipline a long time ago -- may have become the sacrificial lamb for Duke.

I don't know what happened -- or didn't happen -- at the LAX house. I don't know who is telling the truth. But the reality is that this quickly became much bigger than what happened or didn't happen, because it tapped into many deep undercurrants at and around Duke.

First of all, it is more like "one should be considered proven innocent before guilty, but it definitely does not always (and in most cases doesn't) happen that way, and even you're not naive enough to think that way. But lets just say that you are, that you really believe that all people are innocent before proven guilty, then why are you even engaged in this discussion? It still has not been proven that the victim has lied, they are in no way near a conclusion on this case, so by your own statement she should be considered innocent, right?

I'm not going to comment about other neighbors saying they didn't hear anything, because the 911 call transcript exists saying that it did. I hear a lot of things from my neighbors, but I also know that I don't hear everything, nor am I paying much attention to what is going on with them at any given time.

You can move to China. I hear they give you a trial and execute you in one day and send the bill to your family for the bullet.

And the claim is being made against the LAX players not the girl. WTF? You're pretty mung.

-Rudey

A stripper does not have to be a prostitute, and you have nothing on which to base that claim. And what exactly does she get out of "discrediting" a bunch of white kids??? And who said anything about the Duke boys pre-planning a rape...all rapes are not planned in advance a part of a masterminded plot (not saying that it doesn't happen ever). A lot of things seem unlikely...it seems unlikely that there was a reason for a whole sports team to hire a stripper, it seems unlikely that someone would let their name be dragged through the mud to cover up for someone else, but unlikely doesn't come close to equaling impossible.

And as a possible rape victim it is not unlikely that her life can be wrongfully ruined????

"The woman said the assault took place in the early hours of March 14 near Duke's East Campus. She had worked for an escort service to help support her two children and pay for classes at N.C. Central University".

-Rudey

Doesn't matter if she had sex with every man in NC before that night.

If she doesn't give consent, its rape. I don't understand why that's so hard to figure out. So what if she consented to things before...she has the right to NOT consent, and if sexual contact occurs after that then its rape.

And again you missed the point/refused to see it because you don't happen to agree. If you honestly believe that everyone who receives a fair trial in this country then you are obviosly a lot me dense than even I thought you were.
And not the claim in this thread was not be made just against the LAX, you yourself have come out and said that the girl was lying-without proof to the nature of the claim. So I am not off target...but since you are let me clarify what I said in my previous post...

If one is to follow your previous statements about being innocent until proven guilty, then there is not need/justification for you claiming that the girl is lying because you cannot prove her guilt on that matter either.

Well consent or no consent there's no semen, latex, or lube and they didn't find DNA on other parts of her body that matched theirs.

So I'd like to know why that didn't show up on the girl?

-Rudey

You are calling me dense? Are you kidding me?

THE CLAIM IS BY THE DA AGAINST THESE KIDS.

Seriously you are mung. I can't believe how mung you are but you are damn mung.

-Rudey

That you know of. Just like you claim that this woman is lying, the media could be lying too.

Just because the DNA didn't match a player, doesn't mean that she wasn't raped by a friend of a player that was at the party.

Well that's why I'm asking. They said they didn't find any semen, latex, or lube residue. That's what I don't get.

-Rudey

No they wont.

Hey you know what, I think she is a dumb bitch crackhead stripper. I think she should rot in a gutter. She lied, tried to play the race card because it was a bunch of white guys (not trying to be racist, but its pretty evident), and she ruined or significantly changed the lives of a bunch of kids and one of the best lacrosse coaches in the country. She probobly is a prostitute. Just assuming. From watching the news they made it sound like her puss was beat up like a used catcher's mit....which only helped to add to her bullshit rape accusations.

What's the point of a bunch of people who have no idea what if any evidence will be presented at a trial that may or may not occur arguing about guilt/innocence/truth/lies on a message board?

I guess so at the end of the trial, one half can say NAH-NAH I was right, and the other half can continue to argue pointlessly about how the jury was stacked/paid off/etc, and it really should have gone the other way.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I find it kind of funny that the African American 75% of the board or whatever is backing the stripper claiming there could be still evidence to convict these white devils, whereas the white quarter is pointing out that there isn't any evidence. Whatever. I guess the divide still exists. Fine with me.

:confused:

The racial and class divide in this country still exists but that's obvious before this Duke case even came about.

I don't recall anyone in this thread saying anything about white devils. That must be a personal insecurity that you have. If people did mention white devils, those people are IDIOTS.

Have you ever thought that a large percentage of the people you OBSERVE backing the exotic dancer are backing her because of what they know about rape and sexual assault and NOT because she's a black woman who was allegedly victimized by a group of white men? This issue should really be about gender and how rape allegations are viewed, which is why there have been Taking Back the Night Rallies and gendered protests regarding this incident. It is interesting that some people who would NORMALLY be fighting for the rights of rape victims have suddenly started crying for hardfast evidence before voicing an opinion. When you add race to the mix, gender advocates suddenly sing a different tune.

Don't people normally discuss/debate social issue in real life and on these message boards?

The only problem I have is with idiots on both sides of the issue. However, people who can intelligently discuss what we DO know about the case should do so.

IF the guys didn't ejaculate (or Preejaculate) then there would not be any DNA. Is that correct? Also what if it was someone outside the team that attached her, she wouldn't know who was who. i am not saying what happened because I wasn't there. But I think that people tend not to even give someone a chance just because they are strippers or have had many partners, and that is not fair.

I agree -- although I would say that the guilt, innocence, or truthfulness of anybody involved in the incident being discussed here is an evidentiary rather than a social issue. Anybody who was not there or is not involved with the case is not qualified to draw conclusions with respect to said guilt, innocence, or truthfulness.

I see much of the discussion of this social issue is about what is embedded in the case and not the case itself.

As a female Duke alum I am very torn on this issue.

On the one hand I hope that no one I went to school with would ever do such a thing. On the other, I hope no woman would ever make something like this up.

I would like to mention that at Duke it is (or was when I was there) usual for fraternities and sports teams to hire strippers. I'm not sure if this was against any policies, but it certainly didn't seem that anyone was aware policies were being violated. Is this sort of thing less common at other schools?

That's how I feel, as well, minus the "I went to school with" part.

This case is making me sick. Every black talking head in the country is coming out and making these "modern day lynching" comments. They don't give a damn about this girl, but are just trying to promote ridiculous agendas and slandering the white majority. Whats more, it is making the entire southern black community look bad. There are plenty of southern black people trying to buck the traditional stereotypes, only to have their efforts thrashed by things like this. Every time one of these people goes on TV and talks about a white conspiracy, while yelling at the host and the other guests for being "racist", they are hurting the causes they claim to promote.

Agreed. Her friends at that other school or whatever look plain trashy on tv. Their protesters are rendered ridiculous, because it didn't even happen. They fit my stereotype of black people perfectly. Good job guys!

Passionate debate.

Ok this is my problem with this situation:

Initially we have a woman that comes forward claiming to be raped by three men at a party with 40 plus lacrosse guys.

Thats fine.

But the DA went public with the allegations making some very strong claims. That she was definitely raped, that the DNA was going prove it and that the lacrosse players were not cooperating.

Here is the problem, she is accusing three of the team members but everyone is getting punished. In fact, by not charging the three she picked out they are basically trying all 40 plus of them in the media.

Duke University has cancelled their entire season based on the allegations against three members. Their coach resigned based on the allegations against three members.

And in the eyes of the rest of the world, it seems like all 40 plus of them are potentially guilty of rape . . . because of the allegations against three members.

As far as the rest of the team not cooperating, from my understanding a few of them made statements and then sought the advice of a lawyer. As they should. In any legal matter you should always sek the advice of an attourney. Thats just common sense. They shouldn't be blamed for it.

A tribute to how effective media campaigns are in convicting people can be see on greekchat. You would think that everyone here would be backing off a little and saying, "what if these guys are innocent?" Especially as new physical evidence comes out.

And yet many people are still devoted to her position in a way that defies rationality.

Was she raped? I have no way of knowing. But neither do any of you, so maybe we should all hedge our bets a little bit and start logically considering the physical evidence rather than respond emotionally.

Could she have lied about what took place? Sure, why not? Why would she lie? I don't know. But we have exonerated a number of people that spent decades in jail for rape . . . maybe we should ask the women why they falsely accused them.

Ok. Here is what really happened.

She was paid by a rival Lacrosse team to destroy Duke's team. So we just have to look at which Lacrosse teams benefited the most from Duke's destruction and investigate them . . .

Really? It looks like you need to adjust your view and narrow the brush that you are painting with.

If you think the efforts of PLENTY of Southern black people can be thrashed by such incidents, then you are sadly mistaken. Stereotypes are only reinforced when confused people like yourself allow them to be. The "black talking heads" that have spoken on this issue both locally and nationally have a diversity of opinions on this matter, as well as communication styles. I have actually seen more "white talking heads" on national television yelling and screaming about nonsensical, racialized speculation than I have "black talking heads."

Emotional people with "eccentric" communication styles and seemingly unfounded accusations come out the woodworks for situations such as this. The same applies to whites when whites get riled up on certain issues. The difference is that whites are less likely to feel they are being the targets of differential treatment, which automatically gives whites' emotions, opinions, and anger more credibility in AmeriKKKa's eyes.

BTW, your opinion is yet ANOTHER reason why this issue is unavoidably about race.

NPR had sound with the DA and a couple of law professors on this morning. All said basically the same thing -- that's it's entirely possible that a rape can occur and no DNA be left, and that, while it's more difficult to prove, depending on other evidence (notably eyewitness testimony, etc.), a conviction can be obtained without DNA.

I think the DA also said that he was still waiting for more DNA results, but didn't elaborate.

There was also an interview with a woman from an advocate center who said that since we don't know what the evidence is, it's way to premature to be making any judgements one way or the other.

Which I think is what some posters are trying to say.

Frank DeFord's commentary was also partially on this case.

You can probably hear all of this stuff at npr.org.

Correct. I agree with that because I don't form opinions of guilt or innocence so quickly. I do, however, comment on the extralegal factors that contribute to cases. That seems to be what most of this thread is about (i.e. calling the exotic dancer a "prostitute").

But, there has never been a rape case that has received media attention in which people did not attempt to comment on the guilt or innocence of the accusser and accussee. That's especially the case when you add social class and race to the mix.

So, people need to get over the fact that humans are going to discuss and debate even in the absence of hard evidence. Such discussions and debates happen all the time on GC so no point in censoring it now.

Uhm, they were a group of males in their sexual prime?





NOTE: This is not a message for or against anyone's innocence or guilt, just making an observation.

lol I mean how exactly would strippers stay in business if groups of guys didn't hire them?

And again she worked for an escort agency so she also worked as a prostitute. Both are good professions :)

It's also important to note that the DA is running for re-election and needs to get as much press time as possible and to be "loved" by a community that has taken the prostitute's/stripper's side.

-Rudey

OT
 

I thought he was dead. Huh?

Anyway, carry on.

Cases like these are a reason why I do not think DA's or judges should be elected officials. They have to worry too much about what the public thinks and worry about reelection that it can cloud their ability to do the right thing.

Re: OT
 

No, he's a Senior Writer with Sports Illustrated and does a commentary on NPR Morning Edition every Wednesday.

Edited to add these links:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5337959

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=2100422

Hell freaking agreed. In my experience, prosecutors often fall into the mindset that they must obtain convictions at any cost -- making their jobs depend on public opinion only makes this worse.

Re: OT
 

Maybe you're thinking of Dick Schaap?