ICS could easily be programmed in that way. As of now, the potential new member profiles indicate legacy status to all chapters, but there is also a separate section that indicates your specific chapter's legacies. So just make it a "blind item" that doesn't show up on the profiles, but something that only shows on individual chapter legacy lists.

This might be radical, but after reading all this comments I have several thoughts (and this is from the perspective of aa adviser)

What if the forms just asked "is your mother/ sister in a NPC sorority, but did not ask which one, nor give the space to fill it in?

It would be up to the mother/ sister/ grandmother to send the proper forms to the chapter. Do all of the chapters need to know that PMN 42 is a legacy to ABC? No, only ABC does... but as we know, if the information is on the form, it doesn't always get adequately hidden. Why even have it on the form to begin with? I can understand why PMNs at some schools choose not to disclose the information if it will hurt their chance but then we are in a way encouraging them to be deceptive. If all they had to say was "yes, my mother is in a sorority", would that have the same detrimental effect?

As an advisor, I loved having multiple legacies to multiple groups... those parents understood housing requirements/ dues/ and the time issues. We wanted them, and rushed them hard (and while that was a midwestern school, it was competitive, with new member classes of 40-50). A first generation greek did not always have the same family support and we had more issues with dropouts.

It sounds as if its tougher to get into the GLO of one's choice than into the Ivy League. I am so NOT looking forward to this next year!

I would love this, but, ah if only.... We have many PNMs who indicate legacy status, but we don't receive the paperwork. We do verify through the sorority's member search on the website or through Executive Office before considering the woman a legacy. Sometimes we pledge that legacy. and she says "Oh, my mom had no idea she was supposed to send in a form!" And what if the mother / sister / grandmother is deceased?

There's just no way that everyone is going to agree on what an appropriate legacy policy should be. We released three legacies this year but did not call the family members, as we have never been instructed that that is our policy. In fact, one sister protested the release (which was done properly and with the appropriate permissions) by contacting our District Recruitment Director. The DRD and our Province Director decided that it was best handled by International Officers rather than by someone who was too close to the situation - even when I offered to call and speak with her. I know that my collegians made the right decision on all three legacies, and their behavior since recruitment has only validated the releases.

I have a question for those who believe all legacies should be offered a bid regardless of what the chapter thinks. And I do not mean this question disrespectfully, but rather in asking advice for how to handle this situation should it arise in the future. If your daughter or sister is released by her legacy chapter for standards reasons - i.e., she has been seen drinking heavily, using illegal drugs, acting promiscuously - what should I tell you as the advisor who calls to inform you of the release? And what should I tell you if she was released because she was acting snobby and telling everyone in the chapter - as well as other chapters and PNMs that she is "definitely going ADPi" cause she's a legacy and legacies are automatic bids? These are situations that I have encountered. In both of these cases, the family member has complained, threatened to cut ties, and wondered loudly (and rudely) where all the respect has gone. One alumna insisted that her sister was just the most fabulous thing going - an opinion that was not shared by one single active collegian. Sometimes love is (and should be) blind. Peers witness things that others don't.

I understand that alumnae want to share their sisterhood with their relatives. And since I do not have a sister or daughter, I admit that I cannot understand these feelings. Also as alumnae, we must respect and trust our sisters to make appropriate decisions that will affect THEM. We don't have to understand it or like it, but we have to respect it. If being in your sorority is that important, transfer the PNM to a university where recruitment is not quite as cut-throat. If being Greek and experiencing sisterhood is most important, encourage her to consider her other options. Luckily, the three we released found a place to call home and have ironically become a close little group.

I am not sure what our adviser said when/if she made those calls, but I was under the impression that membership selection is totally confidential, and that includes alumnae. I would envision a polite conversation of, "Unfortunately I am calling as a courtesy to you to inform you that AB Chapter has released your daughter. I am sure you understand that MS cannot be discussed, and we wish your daughter well." I don't see what else could be said without violating the secrecy of MS. I can certainly imagine LOTS of other things being said on the other end of the line, but not from the chapter.

I've been giving this more thought, since I do have a daughter. Like many situations, I just don't think you can truly gauge how you're going to feel or react until it happens to you!

I do believe that legacies should be given an extra consideration, but I do not believe that offering them bids should be the 'End All' of their recruitment. What if there were a separate 'party' before formal recruitment began, and legacies could attend to get an initial feel for the party. I think that one thing that may hurt the relative, is that they KNOW how quick rush is and how it is hard to make a truly valid personality decision based on a few minutes of time. This way, when rush actually started, both sides would have a better idea if the legacy chapter/PNM was really worth the effort.

We all know that there sorority women who didn't go to there legacy chapter, and the same can be said for those that did. Further, nothing will truly change until chapters are taught to give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt...legacy or not. For the really big competitive schools, this would probably be easier said than done.

Regarding legacies-- I look at this with the same regard I might take to a current employee's nephew or daughter applying to another branch of the company or a satellite office. You're going to give them some extra consideration out of respect for their relative and their relative's reputation. But aside from that, you have to evaluate the person and see if they're a good fit. Sure it will sting if your kid doesn't get the job.

Being a legacy gets your foot in the door at your legacy house; it shouldn't be an instant ticket to pass Go and collect $200.

We're aware that advertising legacy status can hurt at recruitment; so get legacy recs for your chapter and don't name names on your recruitment application or at non legacy sororities.

I'm not trying to make light of anyone's feelings and I can only imagine how it would hurt for your sorority to cut your daughter or for her to get cut by another chapter because of her legacy house. But I am trying to understand the bigger picture-- I think our daughters, sisters and granddaughters should be happy and the best fit possible for any organization they join.

My 2 cents...

Forgive me if this is a repeat....I admit I have scanned the thread but not read every page in-depth...... but I'd like to bring up the question--------

Are all legacies created equal?

In my opinion, they are not.

Many alumnae have not been active in their GLO since they graduated, but now that they have a daughter/sister/grandaughter going through recruitment, they want priority for them.

But what about the alumnae who have stayed active? They are members of alumnae associations, have served as a volunteer for the the sorority in some capacity (advisor, AA officer, task force, national officer, etc.)? Shouldn't their daughter be given a little more consideration?

One of the chapters I work with had a PNM just last month during formal recruitment tell them, "I just found out my mom is an ADPi!" and she was so excited about it. But I was thinking, "How could your mom not mention the fact that she is an ADPi for the first 18 years of your life?"

Of course the argument could be made that if the sorority pledges the legacy, it might be more incentive for the mother/sister/grandmother to become active as an alumna- maybe her interest will be sparked.

With the new release figures, some chapters have to make some tough decision about legacies early on in the process. It's not fun for anybody.

I would hope more chapters would espouse the latter way of thinking.

To say that a national officer's daughter should get more consideration than Nancy Normal Member's daughter just reeks of "if you aren't on the inside you don't matter in this organization." Things like this get around, and it does NOT make a good impression on alum membership in general - considering the majority is composed of Nancy Normal Members. Not to mention that the national officer's daughter might be a horrible fit for the chapter at the school she's attending and/or want nothing to do with them.

I used to think legacies were not that big a deal until I had a daughter. Since I am an (overly) active alumna, Meg has gone to many Zeta meetings with me and for a while believed that she was already a member. When she was 5, I told her that she might not be a Zeta someday or might not want to be one. She started crying and said, "Please, Mommy, please let me be a Zeta!"

I hope she still feels the same way at 18 (She is now 9) and that the chapter feels the same way about her. I would love for her to be a Zeta but if she attends a Texas school, she faces the very real possibility of being cut during a competitive Recruitment. I would be sad not to be able to share Zeta with her but would support her choice.

Her goal right now is to attend Yale and start a Zeta chapter there. :eek: She scares me some times. :)

Sounds good to me! Top tier school and her Mom's GLO. What could be better?:)

I am not trying to pick on you, but why do so many of your posts reference tiers? You seem very concerned with classifying schools, GLOs, etc. Maybe it is just me, but it comes across as very elitist - and not in a good way. I hate to be confrontational like this, but it has just really jumped out at me.

One of the best posts on this thread!

There is a WORLD of difference between the alumna who shares her sorority magazine with her daughter every month, takes her to meetings, & is herself an International Officer, and the alumna who "happens" to tell her daughter that they're also sisters - after she pledges!!

I'm not jumping on or defending anyone, but I've worked with several campuses, and I've yet to find one where there aren't perceived tiers. Just an observation-- not meant to offend. I still advise any PNM to attend the university that offers her the best education and environment suitable for her and to go into recruitment with the intent to find a sorority where she is most at home.

Does that mean Zeta is not a top tier sorority to you, alum? You always seem to throw tiers into the mix and since you used it to refer to the school, did you purposely leave it OUT with reference to the organization?!?

ANYHOW....moving right along.

Denise

Not at all, I am only referring to Yale being a top-tier university. Not only is it an Ivy League, it is consistently ranked in the top 5 in the country by a variety of sources. I am a strong believer in legacies (although I was not one) and I think it would be great if more daughters followed in their matriarchal footsteps (if the chapters allow them the opportunity). No matter what the GLO is that you belong, you should be proud and want your daughters to join.

The woman who posted was a ZTA. Just because Zeta is not at Yale now doesn't preclude them from colonizing in the future, Is it inconceivable to you that the young daughter she mentions could be both an Eli and a Zeta?

please. in no way did her post suggest that, don't start drama where there is none.

Her posts over and over on this site have been involving tiers, and she's put down other groups (such as my own, KD, specifically, which she has never explained). So many of her posts involve tiers and making some groups better than others.

I know you're her sister and all, but she's been doing this for several weeks now, bringing up tiers and who's better than who in all kinds of threads. It's not panhellenic at all, and a lot of what she says is unfounded. I'm sure that KKG tries to instill panhellenicness in its members. Unfortunately this one missed that memo.

Anybody know if there is an emoticon for talking out both sides of your mouth?

No emoticons that I could find, but there are a few good old fashioned smilies that might be appropriate. There's this one for either talking out of the side of the mouth OR just can't keep mouth shut:
:\/

Then there's this one for tongue tied OR writer only wants to hear himself:
:-&

OR even this one for a generally confused smilie:
:-S


But the specific emoticon for talking out of both sides of your mouth is: :-8

We've learned that just because a PNM lists herself as a legacy to our GLO on her app doesn't mean it's necessarily true. We double check every one through our online membership enrollment. It's sad really, but PNM's have been known to lie.

We expect an older alum to send in a legacy intro form. But we do take into consideration if say grandma has passed away and there's no one to fill it out. BTW an intro doesn't have to be filled out only by the relative, any member can do it on PNM's behalf.

WLFEO hit the nail on the head. The best advice I can offer to a mom, sister, or grandma is that if you know your girl will be going through recruitment then get yourself involved. It doesn't even have to be active with that specific chapter. Although that would be a big plus because then the actives would know you and you can bring your legacy around so they get to know her. Volunteer your time and show them you're dedicated.

But if you don't know where your legacy will end up going to school or you live too far away to be directly active with that chapter, there are lot's of other things you can do. Join or even start an alum association. If there's another campus with a chapter nearby, get involved there. Volunteer to be an international officer. Donate (if you can afford it) to the local chapter or national GLO. When you go on campus visits, make arrangements to visit that chapter. If she'll be attending your alma mater, make plans to return for Homecoming, Founder's Day or other special events.

The list of things you can do is endless. Just don't wait until her senior year in hs. Plan ahead. I know I always look twice and think thrice about allowing our members to drop a PNM who's mom, etc is an incredibly active alum. There had better be darn good reasons and not just she was really shy or didn't seem very interested.

Nothing bothers me more than getting angry calls from some random alum who's ticked because we cut her legacy. I can't tell you how tempted I always am to say "Who are you and why have I never heard your name before now? You expect us to bend over backwards for your legacy, yet you haven't even taken the time over the past 18 years of her life to even make your presence known to us?" Sorry, I've just been raked over the coals too many times.

I can understand your way of thinking, and I sympathize if you've gotten nasty calls, but I think we have to be very careful that we don't get into a pattern of "some are more equal than others." Most legacy policies I've read say a legacy is a daughter, sister, granddaughter of a member. It doesn't say a member who is in an alum chapter or a member who sent cookies to the collegians or a member who donated beaucoup bucks. It says a member, period.

Not everyone has time to be involved, and many people espouse the theory of not wanting to do things halfway - i.e. they don't want to be an alum who is nominally in an alum chapter and can't make most of the events. I'm sure my little would be great in an alum chapter, and there's a collegiate chapter in her town, but she's also working 60+ hours a week and in a singing group besides. She's not going to tell the collegians to call her when they need something - mainly because she might not be there!

If an alum, no matter what her status as involvement goes, has filled out the proper forms and done what they can to make sure the chapter knows about her daughter/sister etc rushing, the same level of courtesy should be applied across the board. They may not be doing much as alums, but they may also be the person who as a collegian personally got 20 women to join and saved her chapter's charter.

I understand your post, but I'll go back to the New Member who didn't know that her mother was an ADPi until she herself pledged ("new membered"???). That's what WLFEO and I believe, Zillini were talking about. That's not a real legacy in the truest sense of the word - that's a pleasant coincidence!

ETA: Even if the mother in this scenario had brought in 20 new members on her own and saved the chapter, the daughter should have been aware of it, in some manner!

That's why I said "if they've filled out the proper paperwork."

However, WLFEO said:

That to me sounds almost like bribery - "you stay active and go to alum chapter meetings and keep paying yearly dues, we'll get your daughter in." Regardless of what the daughter herself brings to the table. I don't think that is right.

When I re-read your post, I saw the "if they've filled out the proper paperwork," and realized my mistake. Point well taken, S.

Wouldn't we get bogged down in minutia if we established levels of legacy status? Is the daughter of a regional director going to get priority placement over the daughter of a chapter adviser? The member who has served as President of her assoc. for one term as opposed to the association member who has contributed $1000s to the Foundation or the one who has planned the Annual Philanthropy fundraiser for the last 10 years? Where do we draw the line? And what makes those members any better than someone who hasn't been as involved, but has filled out the same paperwork? What about the uninvolved member who has been a pillar of the community and involved with other worthy causes? Is her recommendation for her legacy of less value?

And then, what about the PNM herself? Her legacy sister may boast wonderful accomplishments, but what about that PNM is compelling enough to cause the chapter to say-- yes-- we want you! Not just because you are a legacy, but because of your background and accomplishments and the fact that we can really see you as our friend and sister, wearing these letters.

I truly believe the value of legacy status is as a respectful nod to the member. Any PNM must meet the minimum requirements set for membership by the sorority and the campus Panhellenic and stand out on her own. Recommendations, legacies, etc., get your foot in the door, but ultimately, a chapter is only as strong as the members it recruits. And the decision should be up to the chapter so long as they adhere to sorority and Panhellenic standards.

I happen not to agree with the statement that all legacies are equal. They are not equal because each PNM has her own record of what she's accomplished for the first 18+ years of her life AND they aren't equal because each one has relatives with varying degrees of involvement.

Now, yes, they are equal to the degree that they all should be invited back to the second round, etc., but to say that a mediocre legacy is going to the top of the Bid List does not do that girl any favors. In my experience, the chapter who doesn't have a good record on pledging their own legacies is either a.) not a competitive group on campus, or b.) resents the fact that they were coerced into pledging mediocre legacies in the past.

I would hope that as a super-involved alumna of my sorority, my daughter would be given more consideration. That's the way life is. If the President of the House Corporation for 25 years has a daughter coming through -- is she not going to be given more attention than someone who has never updated her name/address?

How do our groups select the Model Initiate for Convention? If all legacies were equal, my guess is that there would be hundreds each year up for consideration. But no, in our case anyway, a woman is selected who is an outstanding individual and has many involved Chi Omega relatives.

I honestly think that the usage of the word Legacy needs to be reviewed, by each GLO separately, and then by the NPC.

A hundred years ago, there were few women in college in the first place, let alone having a daughter who also went to college. That's about FIVE generations of legacies who could have been born and bred. Some of those legacies could be wonderful, some could be awful, some could be the daughters (great-granddaughters) of Founders, some might not even know that they are legacies.

Let's face it - with so many more women going to college, having more legacies than quota is an easy possibility! So, somehow, some way, a new way of "flagging" legacies needs to happen. If we've had so many arguments about what consists of a legacy, and how much consideration should be given one, I can only imagine what each large chapter goes through!

Perhaps just a small tattoo of Greek letters at birth? LOL :p

That truly does happen and I'm sure it's happening to more GLOs than just ADPi. It's just a really hard situation all around.

"Bid me or Die!!" :D

I believe that different GLOs have different definitions of legacies. My own group defines it as a mother, sister, grandmother. Other GLOs extend it to aunt, cousin as well. So if my sister and I had joined certain groups, my daughter would be a double leg. whereas she is only a single through the mom connection. Even more telling is my chapter friend whose mom and 3 sisters pledged the same GLO. HER daughter is considered a double legacy but in other groups would be a quintuple. BTW, my friend and I are both extrememly involved in our respective alumnae ass'ns. :)

networking.

it happens with employment, membership to country clubs, elks clubs,etc., admission to colleges and membership in sororities and fraternities.

legacies of graduates of many universities and colleges are given extra consideration for admission, providing other things are equal(grades, sat scores, volunteer hours, activities and awards). if the family has made contributions to the school or funded the new international business building and serves on the board of directors. their child is more likely than not to get extra consideration. there is an established history with the school & the parent(or parents) actively makes contributions to the school, either money, time or both. every admission is a role of the dice, and someone whose family has a history with the college, will appear to be a safer bet. the same can be said of fraternal legacies.

if a parent has stayed active with their fraternity or sorority, contributed time and money, volunteered their time either locally or nationally, their legacy probably understands that membership is for a lifetime. they have seen that the fraternity/sorority member values their membership and places a high priority on remaining involved. the legacy, most likely, has had discussions with their involved relative and understands what membership entails. their relative has set a good example for them.

if it boils down to two legacies,equal in every way, vying for the last remaining spot on the first bid list, who would you choose? one is the legacy of a very involved alumna, and the other found out the week of recruitment that she is a legacy, i would vote for legacy #1. it is a gamble anyway, legacy or not. i would place my bet on the girl who has seen first hand, devotion to the sorority. she has had a fine example set for her, and hopefully thinks that going above and beyond is the norm.

Heavens no, that's not what I meant at all. As I said I'd look at the reasons why the actives wanted to drop the PNM in question more closely, that's all. In actuality I review Recs and Legacy Intros for every legacy that falls on the drop list. We also require Province Director approval to drop a legacy.

Also to be clear, Bama is one of those schools that has large numbers of legacies coming through every year. It's a tough competitive Recruitment. Every PNM is highly scrutinized and truly needs to stand out. All I'm suggesting is that it would only benefit a PNM if an alum makes herself known and there's alot of ways to do that that don't require much time, effort or even being there in person.

But that's still not a "lock" to get a bid. Ultimately it's the actives' decision, not mine and I'll stand behind them. If the Grand President's granddaughter came through and if there wasn't a shadow of a doubt that she would not make a good member, I'd support the their desire to drop her. (Don't know how well it would go over with TPTB though.)

A few years back we dropped the niece of a former Chapter Advisor, House Corp Pres and incredibly active local alum. (Technically not a legacy, but still it was a difficult situation.) This young woman was simply not a good fit. The Aunt was furious and refuses to step foot inside the house ever again. I learned the niece joined another GLO and was very happy there, but apparently that doesn't matter to the Aunt.

I would vote for the girl who herself has made more of an impression on me. Sometimes dynamic mothers have very blah daughters. And there's also the possibility that the daughter's being forced to rush, not really wanting to. She might also resent the sorority because her mom's spent more time with it than her. At any rate, I would never say daughter of superinvolved mom = better member.

I agree with honeychile that the usage of the word legacy needs to be reviewed, especially for those groups with chapters where more legs come through than they could ever bid.

but remember, i said that both girls were equal, with the exception that one had had a relative who made a lifetime commitment to her sorority and the other a relative who had not. both these hypothetical pnms were equally gifted( academically, looks, extra curriculars and personality wise).

I don't think two girls could ever be equal personality wise. If they could, we would have a much easier time giving out bids in general.

There is always that extra "something" in a girl that makes you like A more than B - even if it's so small as to be infinitesimal. That to me is far more important than anything her mother has done.

Agreed. But I can see everyone's point-- where it not expressly on a paper legacy recommendation that one legacy is weighted higher than another due to her legacy sister's level of involvement, it seems that politics do play a role in selection. I guess that is true of any organization with membership requirements and selection (nepotism in the workplace, university alumni, sorority alumnae, country club membership, etc...)

We had an International Vice President whose daughters both went through recruitment at an extremely competitive southern school while she was in office and it was stressful for everybody. She didn't want to pressure her daughters into becoming Alpha Gams and she didn't want the chapter to feel pressured since she was an International officer. I never asked for details of their recruitment, but I do know they both ended up Alpha Gams.

This is a tough one for me. The only day I can think of that would be more special than the birth of my children would be the day my daughter was initiated into Alpha Gamma Delta. It's a hope and dream of mine, although I wouldn't push it on her. I bleed red, buff and green and can't think of anything more special than having my own daughter be a member. At 12, she is on the right path to living the ideals of our Purpose because she is a straight A student, active in Girl Scouts, band, and yearbook club. She has a lot of friends and has always found a niche wherever she went, even though she's shy when she first meets people. She's a very down to earth girl and, if she doesn't change drastically over the next 6 years, would be a leader and an asset to any chapter. Of course, I'm her mother so I'm biased, but her teachers, Girl Scout leaders, etc. all rave about what a good kid she is, so I have some objective opinions about her too. I would have a hard time if I knew that a group of sisters dropped her from recruitment.

Right now though, she has goals of going to Harvard, so unless we colonize there, it won't be a possibility... Unless we do AI for her...lol.

Dee