GreekChat.com Forums - FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

GreekChat.com Forums (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/index.php)

- News & Politics (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/forumdisplay.php?f=207)

- - FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=73535)

Quote:

Originally posted by Shortfuse
Alot of things don't make sense to you Rudey. Get off the apology tip. Neither of you deserve one nor will you get one. I celebrate Ramadan but I won't go out and post a article bashing it. :rolleyes:

For the author to call it a CHUMP HOLIDAY, states that something about it bothers him.:rolleyes:

"A lot of things don't make sense to you" either Shortfuse. That's an empty claim though since it really applies to everyone on earth.

You don't have to apologize since you made a mistake and accused me, but I know in you're heart you're good so it's OK.

You should email the author. You can also ask the girls in the AKA forum too why they didn't like kwanzaa. As for Ramadan, you're on your own if you dislike it but celebrate it.

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
It is unfortunate that the federal government is using such elementary school definitions of racism, prejudice, and discrimination.

Considering that the main thrust of the education about racism and prejudice is being directed at the children in elementary school (the formative years) it really should come as a surprise that the language reflects it. The link itself comes from a new iniative that has been tried in New Brunswick, to try and eliminate racist/bigoted attitudes before they take root; a iniative which will now be the standard across Canada for elemantry students (well except in Alberta)

I used the link because a) it's in my bookmarks for the kids at school (volunteer teach) when race and racism is discussed; and b) it's a good, quick introduction to the basic understanding of how broadly racism is applied in Canadian society.

Other links of a more "advanced" level from the federal government:
A Canada for All: Canada's Action Plan Against Racism - An Overview
http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/multi/pla...view_vue_e.cfm
Racism, Stop It!
http://www.pch.gc.ca/march%2D21%2Dmars/index_e.cfm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
"A lot of things don't make sense to you" either Shortfuse. That's an empty claim though since it really applies to everyone on earth.

You don't have to apologize since you made a mistake and accused me, but I know in you're heart you're good so it's OK.

You should email the author. You can also ask the girls in the AKA forum too why they didn't like kwanzaa. As for Ramadan, you're on your own if you dislike it but celebrate it.

-Rudey

:rolleyes:

So Hoosier should be on his own then.

I mean he "might" celebrate it and dislike it as well.

I don't care why the girls in the AKA forum don't like kwanzaa.

This articles goes alot deeper than just not liking Kwanzaa. I don't have to apologize because I'm not wrong. I'm just going off of what you said.

Quote:

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
It is unfortunate that the federal government is using such elementary school definitions of racism, prejudice, and discrimination.

It looks like that's what Canada's government has for a definition. I didn't even know national governments defined those terms.

Does anyone know if the U.S. has "official" definitions like that for racism, etc.?

Quote:

Originally posted by Shortfuse
:rolleyes:

So Hoosier should be on his own then.

I mean he "might" celebrate it and dislike it as well.

It's possible. I really have no idea. Hoosier would probably know best.

I think the guy that created Kwanzaa sounds like a not-so-nice guy and I don't understand where corn fits into the picture. Plus I'm not of African descent and in need of a new holiday. So based on that, I personally will skip it. I'd wish you a happy Kwanzaa but you don't celebrate either. We are at a dearth for Kwanzaa believers it seems.

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by KSigkid
It looks like that's what Canada's government has for a definition. I didn't even know national governments defined those terms.

Does anyone know if the U.S. has "official" definitions like that for racism, etc.?

Even using that new "Definition", he hasn't made the case for how it applies.

The sad thing is that if nobody had thrown that card around, maybe people could have just addressed the article instead in this thread.

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
Even using that new "Definition", he hasn't made the case for how it applies.

-Rudey

Oh, I wasn't saying that he had. I just never realized that governments had official definitions for racism or other terms. I never really thought about it.

As far as the article, I really don't know enough about the holiday to comment. However, I don't think using inflammatory language
like "chump holiday" ever works when you're trying to prove a point.

Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by hoosier
Jewish World Review Dec. 31, 1999/22 Teves, 5760
Tony Snow

The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

http://www.jewishworldreview.com --

BLACKS IN AMERICA have suffered an endless series of insults and degradations, the latest of which goes by the name of Kwanzaa.

Ron Karenga (aka Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga) invented the seven-day feast (Dec. 26-Jan. 1) in 1966, branding it a black alternative to Christmas. The idea was to celebrate the end of what he considered the Christmas-season exploitation of African Americans.

According to the official Kwanzaa Web site -- as opposed, say, to the Hallmark Cards Kwanzaa site -- the celebration was designed to foster "conditions that would enhance the revolutionary social change for the masses of Black Americans" and provide a "reassessment, reclaiming, recommitment, remembrance, retrieval, resumption, resurrection and rejuvenation of those principles (Way of Life) utilized by Black Americans' ancestors."

Karenga postulated seven principles: unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith, each of which gets its day during Kwanzaa week. He and his votaries also crafted a flag of black nationalism and a pledge: "We pledge allegiance to the red, black, and green, our flag, the symbol of our eternal struggle, and to the land we must obtain; one nation of black people, with one G-d of us all, totally united in the struggle, for black love, black freedom, and black self-determination."

Now, the point: There is no part of Kwanzaa that is not fraudulent. Begin with the name. The celebration comes from the Swahili term "matunda yakwanza," or "first fruit," and the festival's trappings have Swahili names -- such as "ujima" for "collective work and responsibility" or "muhindi," which are ears of corn celebrants set aside for each child in a family.

Unfortunately, Swahili has little relevance for American blacks. Most slaves were ripped from the shores of West Africa. Swahili is an East African tongue.

To put that in perspective, the cultural gap between Senegal and Kenya is as dramatic as the chasm that separates, say, London and Tehran. Imagine singing "G-d Save the Queen" in Farsi, and you grasp the enormity of the gaffe.

Worse, Kwanzaa ceremonies have no discernible African roots. No culture on earth celebrates a harvesting ritual in December, for instance, and the implicit pledges about human dignity don't necessarily jibe with such still-common practices as female circumcision and polygamy. The inventors of Kwanzaa weren't promoting a return to roots; they were shilling for Marxism. They even appropriated the term "ujima," which Julius Nyrere cited when he uprooted tens of thousands of Tanzanians and shipped them forcibly to collective farms, where they proved more adept at cultivating misery than banishing hunger.

Even the rituals using corn don't fit. Corn isn't indigenous to Africa. Mexican Indians developed it, and the crop was carried worldwide by white colonialists.

The fact is, there is no Ur-African culture. The continent remains stubbornly tribal. Hutus and Tutsis still slaughter one another for sport.

Go to Kenya, where I taught briefly as a young man, and you'll see endless hostility between Kikuyu, Luo, Luhya and Masai. Even South African politics these days have more to do with tribal animosities than ideological differences.

Moreover, chaos too often prevails over order. Warlords hold sway in Somalia, Eritrea, Liberia and Zaire. Genocidal maniacs have wiped out millions in Rwanda, Uganda and Ethiopia. The once-shining hopes for Kenya have vanished.

Detroit native Keith Richburg writes in his extraordinary book, "Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa," that "this strange place defies even the staunchest of optimists; it drains you of hope ..."

Richburg, who served for three years as the African bureau chief for The Washington Post, offers a challenge for the likes of Karenga: "Talk to me about Africa and my black roots and my kinship with my African brothers and I'll throw it back in your face, and then I'll rub your nose in the images of rotting flesh."

His book concludes: "I have been here, and I have seen -- and frankly, I want no part of it. .... By an accident of birth, I am a black man born in America, and everything I am today -- my culture and my attitudes, my sensibilities, loves and desires -- derives from that one simple and irrefutable fact."

Nobody ever ennobled a people with a lie or restored stolen dignity through fraud. Kwanzaa is the ultimate chump holiday -- Jim Crow with a false and festive wardrobe. It praises practices -- "cooperative economics, and collective work and responsibility" -- that have succeeded nowhere on earth and would mire American blacks in endless backwardness.

Our treatment of Kwanzaa provides a revealing sign of how far we have yet to travel on the road to reconciliation. The white establishment has thrown in with it, not just to cash in on the business, but to patronize black activists and shut them up.

This year, President Clinton signed his fourth Kwanzaa proclamation. He crooned: "The symbols and ceremony of Kwanzaa, evoking the rich history and heritage of African Americans, remind us that our nation draws much of its strength from our diversity."

But our strength, as Richburg points out, comes from real principles: tolerance, brotherhood, hard work, personal responsibility, equality before the law. If Americans really cared about racial healing, they would focus on those ideas -- and not on a made-up rite that mistakes segregationism for spirituality and fiction for history.

Tony Snow Archives

©1999, Creators Syndicate

Tony, on his radio show today, told listeners to spread this srticle in any way possible.

Because I like quoting GeekyPenguin, who also happens to be a GC moderator:

Quote:

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
This post is a violation of the GreekChat.com TOS and should be deleted.

Quote:

Originally posted by RACooper
Considering that the main thrust of the education about racism and prejudice is being directed at the children in elementary school (the formative years) it really should come as a surprise that the language reflects it.

It figures. :(

This program will be largely ineffective for a number of reasons. The federal government probably knows that already.

Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by AXiD670
Because I like quoting GeekyPenguin, who also happens to be a GC moderator:

Technically if Tony Snow is the author and asked people to share the article...

-Rudey

Quote:

They probably have a research and consulting team. The definitions they used did not come out of no where because they can be found in the literature. Unfortunately, I have been unable to get other social scientists to abandon simplistic conceptualizations of our social world. :)

Re: Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
Technically if Tony Snow is the author and asked people to share the article...

-Rudey

Good point. But still, the TOS says, "You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you."

By telling people to share the article, does the author then give up the copyright? I don't know anything about copyright law.

Unless, of course, Hoosier is Tony Snow. But hey, he's been a Marquette alum, so anything is possible I guess.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
Even using that new "Definition", he hasn't made the case for how it applies.

The sad thing is that if nobody had thrown that card around, maybe people could have just addressed the article instead in this thread.

-Rudey

Alright then I’ll try and present a logical argument to my reasoning behind labelling hoosier a racist (in this particular incident).

Now if hoosier has been one of those buying into the whole “War on Christmas” crap, outraged about the attacks of the ‘media’, then why would he turn around and post an article attacking another cultural/spiritual celebration? One then needs to look at his possible motives…

Perhaps he was motivated by a genuine desire to explore the foundations of the celebration… by then why cite an attack article by someone with a history of ties to White Supremacy? In the light of hoosier’s past “questionable” posts and opinions on culture and/or “race” then one is led to the conclusion that this is just another example of his views – except in this case he outright cited a “bigot” for all of GC to see.

Re: Re: Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by AXiD670
"...the TOS says, "You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you."

Technically, that is correct wording from the TOS, however allegedly the author of the article in question has given sort of a "blanket" permission to use it.

While the TOS does say what is quoted above, in a post to moderators, John basically said that if permission is granted, a piece of copyrighted material may be used.

I'm not speaking for John, but my personal interpretation is that it may be used in its entirety. Again, that is only if permission of the author is granted, which Hoosier claims to be the case here.

Quote:

I think this definition is applied only in terms of addressing racism in the courts or with legislation. I seriously doubt that if you asked the average Joe (or Jane) Canadian on the street how they defined racism, they'd spout the official government line.

Quote:

Originally posted by RACooper
Alright then I’ll try and present a logical argument to my reasoning behind labelling hoosier a racist (in this particular incident).

Now if hoosier has been one of those buying into the whole “War on Christmas” crap, outraged about the attacks of the ‘media’, then why would he turn around and post an article attacking another cultural/spiritual celebration? One then needs to look at his possible motives…

Perhaps he was motivated by a genuine desire to explore the foundations of the celebration… by then why cite an attack article by someone with a history of ties to White Supremacy? In the light of hoosier’s past “questionable” posts and opinions on culture and/or “race” then one is led to the conclusion that this is just another example of his views – except in this case he outright cited a “bigot” for all of GC to see.

You say "in this particular incident" and then try and bring up other threads as reasoning. I presume that in those other threads you would also do the same thing if asked why you used the word.

Unless you can explicitly point to the reason, it's time to stop throwing out the word because it makes it difficult to stop people or comments that are in the future.

No, Hoosier is not an angel but addressing specific problems when they arise is best and gives you more ammo.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Technically, that is correct wording from the TOS, however allegedly the author of the article in question has given sort of a "blanket" permission to use it.

While the TOS does say what is quoted above, in a post to moderators, John basically said that if permission is granted, a piece of copyrighted material may be used.

I'm not speaking for John, but my personal interpretation is that it may be used in its entirety. Again, that is only if permission of the author is granted, which Hoosier claims to be the case here.

Thank you for the clarification. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by AXiD670
Thank you for the clarification. :)

You're welcome. Again, though, this is my interpretation of John's comments.

To be absolutely safe, I wouldn't use an entire piece unless I was sure that the copyright holders permission had been granted.

(How's that for a CYA statement?)

Isnt this always in The Eye of the Beholder(Reader/Poster):confused:

We may agree to disagree, but to blame someone for posting what other people post is wrong?:(

The fine line is clouded by a haze isnt it?;) Oh, do not drive throug The Haze, You can have an Accident!:)

Quote:

Originally posted by RACooper
Perhaps he was motivated by a genuine desire to explore the foundations of the celebration… by then why cite an attack article by someone with a history of ties to White Supremacy?

Tony Snow discussed this on the radio show. Some White Supremacy bunch has posted the article without permission, and they have been sent a cease and desist letter.

He and I want nothing to do with White Supremacy groups.

The definition of "Racism" is believing that one race is superior to another.

Criticizing a member of another race, or posting an article commenting on a holiday celebrated by another race, is not racist or racism.

I put Kwanzaa stamps on some of my holiday mail.

Happy New Year from the beach in Florida.

Re: Re: Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by AXiD670
Unless, of course, Hoosier is Tony Snow. But hey, he's been a Marquette alum, so anything is possible I guess.

Funny, I always thought that Hoosier is a cross-dressing pre-op that always wanted to hangout with the sistahs... But gets not play so that's why he posts so much silliness...

Besides, all of this is silly... This whole discussion... Silly... Some folks are starving and freezing in the world and we are all discussing whether or not to celebrate...

Just smoke a dube and drink some Korbel and let's ring the New Year in...

And yeah, I use to celebrate Kwanzaa, but I haven't found an ASCAC group that celebrates it up where I am, yet. Till I do, I haven't been following the real notion of the movement, lately...

And I know several folks from East Africa that celebrated Ramadan...

Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by hoosier
Detroit native Keith Richburg ...who served for three years as the African bureau chief for The Washington Post...concludes: "I have been here, and I have seen -- and frankly, I want no part of it. .... By an accident of birth, I am a black man born in America, and everything I am today -- my culture and my attitudes, my sensibilities, loves and desires -- derives from that one simple and irrefutable fact."...But our strength, as Richburg points out, comes from real principles: tolerance, brotherhood, hard work, personal responsibility, equality before the law. If Americans really cared about racial healing, they would focus on those ideas -- and not on a made-up rite that mistakes segregationism for spirituality and fiction for history.

The fact is the world will NEVER be equal... You tell that to the majority of Black American Hurricane Katrina victims about equality and they really don't give a flyin' fcuk about any Africa... But they dayum sure know that they were jacked by our elected officials...

And Tony Snow outta be ashamed of himself, always finding the ONE negro who is too happy to readily sellout his race by tap dancing his way to the top...

Oh how the mighty will fall--and fast too...

Quote:

Originally posted by omegamcgee

Why do black people have to have a seperate holiday? I mean, I'm not trying to be racist, but I thought that the key to ending racism was realizing we're all just people. Making up a holiday that you can celebrate just because your skin is a certain color seems kind of defeatist and like it would perpetuate racism even more.

I'm sure I'll get called a racist for that statement, but I'm not. Sorry if it offends anyone.

Why do Irish people get St. Patrick's Day (at least in Chicago)? Why do Jewish people have to have Hannukah? How could you ask something so ignorant? It seems like people are always SO eager to criticize anything that black people do or initiate when the same things occur in other cultures. Its so irritating. Im not going to waste my time with any details on why this very sentiment is what drives the divisions in this nation b/c you all KNOW if I felt like it I could rip this person to shreds over this garbage. I don't understand why people like aka_monet, starang, Chaos and others are even wasting time in this thread. I just wanted to point this post out as an example of the ignorance that flourished in this country and among its people. People simply DO NOT understand. So what?

Its funny how people fault us for carrying the thought patterns and emotions from generations past regarding racism but fail to realize and acknowledge that just as our forefathers in this country had to put up with the pervasive ignorance and hatred that drive motivations of people like Hoosier and passed those sensations and sensitivities down to us, white people of the past have passed down sentiments and emotions of supremacy and entitlements equal in strength down to the people who live in this country today. The ignorance and apathy is just as strong in many today as it was back then...just as our sense of disdain for that ignorance and apathy resides within us as it did our ancestors. Think about this the next time you want to question "why black people have to have their own holiday" or better yet, "why do black people feel the way that they do", do not connect with america, or don't care to be all excited about many of the things other americans care so much about. I could go on and on but as I said, I refuse to waste my time trying to open the eyes of some grown, supposedly college educated people who spend their time making comments such as the ones made in this thread.

Happy Kwanzaa

Re: Re: FYI: The TRUTH about Kwanzaa

Quote:

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
The fact is the world will NEVER be equal... You tell that to the majority of Black American Hurricane Katrina victims about equality and they really don't give a flyin' fcuk about any Africa... But they dayum sure know that they were jacked by our elected officials...

And Tony Snow outta be ashamed of himself, always finding the ONE negro who is too happy to readily sellout his race by tap dancing his way to the top...

Oh how the mighty will fall--and fast too...

Off topic here, but according to the latest count from the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals, the majority of Katrina deaths were not black and whites had a higher death rate proportionally. I'm not sure what the numbers will end up being at the end or what the numbers are for people that are homeless now. At the same time, the Congressional Black Caucus said that no federal money was being spent on the victims and the government was slow to respond, but it has yet to disburse any bit of the $400,000 raised so far by the group. Heck now they want to set up a committee to determine how to spend the money so no victims will get a cent for a long time.

-Rudey

You're one to talk about ignorance. At one point you claimed I supported the Iraq war because I was Jewish (even though that makes little sense given that 70% of the Jewish population opposes the Iraq war - higher than the general population).

-Rudey

Quote:

Originally posted by Phasad1913
Why do Irish people get St. Patrick's Day (at least in Chicago)? Why do Jewish people have to have Hannukah? How could you ask something so ignorant? It seems like people are always SO eager to criticize anything that black people do or initiate when the same things occur in other cultures. Its so irritating. Im not going to waste my time with any details on why this very sentiment is what drives the divisions in this nation b/c you all KNOW if I felt like it I could rip this person to shreds over this garbage. I don't understand why people like aka_monet, starang, Chaos and others are even wasting time in this thread. I just wanted to point this post out as an example of the ignorance that flourished in this country and among its people. People simply DO NOT understand. So what?

Its funny how people fault us for carrying the thought patterns and emotions from generations past regarding racism but fail to realize and acknowledge that just as our forefathers in this country had to put up with the pervasive ignorance and hatred that drive motivations of people like Hoosier and passed those sensations and sensitivities down to us, white people of the past have passed down sentiments and emotions of supremacy and entitlements equal in strength down to the people who live in this country today. The ignorance and apathy is just as strong in many today as it was back then...just as our sense of disdain for that ignorance and apathy resides within us as it did our ancestors. Think about this the next time you want to question "why black people have to have their own holiday" or better yet, "why do black people feel the way that they do", do not connect with america, or don't care to be all excited about many of the things other americans care so much about. I could go on and on but as I said, I refuse to waste my time trying to open the eyes of some grown, supposedly college educated people who spend their time making comments such as the ones made in this thread.

Happy Kwanzaa