Re: the DU expansion - doesn't it make sense that most GLOs are expanding to lesser known, or smaller schools in recent years? Many GLOs already have chapters at the big schools, and therefore must expand elsewhere, or choose not to expand. Also, GLOs can't just decide to go onto large campuses - there is a procedure that is mostly out of their control.

Yeah...forget the Ivies...colonize at Bob Jones State Polytechnic International University.

-Rudey

For one thing, f*ck the Ivies - most of those schools aren't any harder (and often are easier - ever heard of grade inflation?) and don't provide any higher quality of education than lots of other schools in the country. They're just harder to get in to. Big deal.

For another thing, what is the purpose of GLOs, anyway? Anyone you ask will respond differently. But the fact is, they are not all academic honor societies. (BTW, if you are going to be an elitist about what schools are "good" in that respect, maybe you should check out what schools have Phi Beta Kappa chapters before making out your list.) A lot of people think that, while scholarship is important, things like sisterhood/brotherhood and serving the community are more so - and you can definitely be at any kind of school, or no school at all, and still have those things.

ETA: Here is the link to the PBK chapter directory, if anyone's interested - http://www.pbk.org/affiliate/chapterdir.htm

1) There are very few schools without grade inflation, and those are never the lower tiered schools.

2) It's not about being an academic honor society. Academics are not the only thing that separate tier 1 schools from the rest. The list of schools PBK is irrelevant.

3) A fraternity/sorority is exclusive and elitist by its nature. I want the best people as my brothers. You can choose to have whomever you want I guess too.

-Rudey

Yeah, okay. You're right. They're terrible. The media wing of the Democratic party just keeps them afloat.

So what exactly is it about students at Tier I schools that makes them so superior for fraternities/sororities? What qualities do you perceive them as having that make them "the best people"?

From what I found on answers.com, this is how the tiers are determined:

* Peer assessment: a survey of the institution's reputation among presidents, provosts, and deans of admission of other institutions
* Retention: six-year graduation rate and first-year student retention rate
* Student selectivity: standardized test scores of admitted students, proportion of admitted students in upper percentiles of their high-school class, and proportion of applicants accepted
* Faculty resources: average class size, faculty salary, faculty degree level, student-faculty ratio, and proportion of full-time faculty
* Financial resources: per-student spending
* Graduation rate performance: difference between expected and actual graduation rate
* Alumni giving rate

So as far as I can tell, you are saying it should be based on academic selectivity, and looking at this, class as well (per-student spending, alumni giving rate)?

Examples of a few (randomly selected) schools from Tiers I, II, III, and IV from another website (http://www.go4ivy.com/rankings.asp):

Tier I: Cal Tech, Emory, Washington St Louis
Tier II: Bates, Georgetown, Notre Dame
Tier III: Case WR, Tulane, UVA
Tier IV: GWU, UNC Chapel Hill, West Point

In response to your number 3 - exactly. Different fraternities and sororities can choose whoever they want for their organizations, and still call themselves fraternities and sororities. This might shock and horrify you, but not all fraternities and sororities are "exclusive and elitist by nature," nor do they all want to be.

Maybe myself and some of my OPhiA sisters wouldn't be people you would like to have in your ideal GLO world, but I assure you that we have all learned a lot from our sisterhood together.

$$$$

You don't get it and I doubt I could explain it much more to you. I don't know how to phrase this well but a while ago there was a gentleman on here from England who wanted to start a Law Fraternity; you remind me of him.

I am sure neither of us will ever understand each other.

-Rudey

And again, to stop people from taking this down the wrong road:

I am not saying to stop chapter operations at all lower tier schools. I am saying that given that the higher tier schools have such outstanding students, it's a shame that fraternities and sororities have chosen to pass them over for the party schools.

-Rudey

Often the challenges of entering top-tier schools -- especially private ones make such a move impossible. Some organizations like DKE seem to have done so, limiting themselves to mostly prestigious schools while other organizations like PKA or Kappa Sigma seem to be able to put quality chapters together on virtually any campus in fairly short order.

I guess it depends on your organization's goal -- does it want to be small and elitist, or does it want to have a large and diverse brotherhood spread all over the country? Of course some organizations also try to be both.

I didn't go to a top tier school, most of us didn't. I think the greek system in general is better with us than without us, but feel free to disagree.

Well, we probably won't, but I would at least like to attempt it. Could you please answer my question about what makes the Tier I school students the "best people" for fraternities and sororities, based on the facts of how these schools are ranked, so that I can understand your position (even if I don't agree with it)?

I don't see what this has to do with a law fraternity; we have Phi Alpha Delta at GT - do you object to professional fraternities and sororities using the terms fraternity and sorority? Are only primarily social organizations allowed to use the terms? Excuse me, only social organizations at top-tier schools that have exclusive membership practices?

You say we will never understand each other, and while we probably will never agree, I think we can understand each other - if you would answer my questions.

I would think it's just as challenging (if not more) to go into a party school with 200 man chapters and colonize at a smaller, prestigious university.

Kevin, again I didn't say your fraternity would be better without you or your chapter.

-Rudey

Oh no! Apparently I must be seriously delusional ... My school's not Tier I, and apparently there are supposed to be parties going on all the time, everywhere - please, someone, help me, I can't find them!

If you really think that a school is either Tier I or a party school, you have not been paying attention. Did you look at the examples of schools in the top four tiers I posted? West Point is Tier IV. Probably not a party school, if I had to guess.

We're online at the same time. It happens. Don't worry, though - I'm getting offline now to work on some homework. Still, I would really appreciate it if you would answer my questions instead of name-calling.

Thanks.
:D

Aww. RIP Pip.

And I think ktsnake is right - a lot of the times the "top" schools don't want Greek life and if they don't outright ban it, they discourage it. Guys can choose to come and start a colony if they want, but it's different for NPCs. But I can see the thinking of "do I want to go to Colgate and have to fight the administration constantly, or do I want to go to JustTurnedIntoAUniversity U, where they are ASKING us to come in?"

It's like the lack of participation by the more traditionally elitist schools is forcing Greeks to be less elitist if they want to survive....only for them to be called "elitist" by the nonGreek students at the antielitist schools they colonize at.

I'm going to walk away from this thread, come back later (after a Frappacino maybe) and see if that makes sense.

Sororities are a different ballgame, I understand that. But even 2 or 3 sororities could couple up with at least 10 fraternities on a small top tier campus. The administration may be hostile at times, but hey party schools like Colorado and Indiana don't seem to be friendly to them these days either. From what I've seen sororities rarely worry about administration hostility at these schools, because they're not exposed to the same risks and play by the admin rules no matter what. At UChicago, the sororities bent over backwards for the admin while the fraternities refused to release membership lists and brought lawyers and alumni to meetings with admin when they tried to crack the proverbial whip.

You will never get huge chapters at these schools but that's not important. You are working with a much stronger student population to begin with. To say you want the best of the best and to encourage these great values is not believable if you are ignoring these good schools for party schools where often there is news of pledges that are tortured and events revolving around the whether a beer bong is preferable to shotgunning.

Again, I'm not saying that the top tier schools won't have their share of problems or that lower tier schools are all full of problems. I think that Greeks do well at certain top tier schools and it's sad to ignore them for the sake of growing at questionable schools.

-Rudey

Just a thought, but every school at one point was new. School reps are fads that come in and out depending on a variety of different factors. Prestige can be lost just as well as earned.

I never said that.

You are such a bitter boy.

:)

Again, I think it comes down to the mentality that 'we have to expand, we have to have more numbers, and we have to include everyone'.

In my view, a fraternity is not something that includes everyone. Join a club if that's what you want.

So my sorority, in your opinion, is a club and should not be called a sorority?

I'm not saying that all fraternities and sororities have to have open membership, or that they all should. But I don't see what is wrong with organizations that do using the terms fraternity and sorority.

You keep pushing and pushing and it's like you want someone to just flat out say it. Whether you have some sort of Napolean complex or just want to take this thread completely off course, I don't know.

If you want that, fine. You are not in a sorority. However, you can call it a sorority if you want or a nunnery; it won't matter much.

-Rudey

Being "relatively" new to GC, and being constrained in the amount of time I have to search GC threads, if you don't mind my asking, What organization do you belong to?

The Republican Party.

We can all discuss elections now if you wish too.

-Rudey

To you, obviously not. I would still like to see some kind of logical explanations behind the things you are saying.

As far as belonging to the Republican Party - you certainly aren't doing them much credit. At least with many Republicans I know, they at least will provide me with some reasoning and logic for their positions on different issues, even if I disagree with it. You, for some mysterious reason, refuse to even provide a reasoned argument. Not impressive.

I am not here to educate you. Your questions, sidetracking, remarks both in this thread and the one on NPC/NPHC differences are rather corrosive to many as you have seen from the responses.

While I do enjoy your insults (first against good schools - "F*ck the Ivy League" and then against me, I am going to put you on ignore. This will help provide you with more time to educate yourself in school and to do volunteer activities with your organization.

-Rudey

If you can't figure out what you are saying, perhaps that is the reason why you aren't in a Tier 1 school.

Golden gate bridge her dude.

-Rudey

SUPER HIGH 5

Time to do the motorboat

I know what I'm saying, and I've provided reasons for my statements. I just want Rudey to give reasons for what he is saying. I never knew that was so much to ask ...

and i want to ask Michael jackson why he molest kids.

quit asking stupid questions

I thought this was thread about mergers... what happened?

And I for one would love to be a KappaDeltaDeltaDeltaZetaTauAlphaOmicronPiBetaPhi ;)

Can we stop with the flame war? It's childish to use the forums to just egg people on.

It's my opinion that how you get people isn't what makes a fraternity or sorority...the brotherhood/sisterhood is what truly matters in the end.

You're right. I'm sure your sister will stop but either way it won't matter because she is on ignore. Your post contributed a lot though so I appreciate it.

Again, let's talk about mergers and not irrelevant questions that some girls have posed.

I don't think any of the smaller outfits with concentrations at northeastern tier 1 schools will merge. Heck Alpha Delta Phi split instead of merging and it was small to begin with.

-Rudey

Some days I <3 you Rudey....;) ;)

Now that would rock ;)

I thought I was pretty familiar with the histories of the nationals on my campus but didn't know about that. When did Alpha Phi Delta have a split and what was the other group that resulted?

I wonder if Rudey meant Alpha Delta Phi, which split into Alpha Delta Phi Fraternity (all-male) and Alpha Delta Phi Society (co-ed).

Actually, I was talking to you. She's backing up her arguments while you're high-fiving your buddies.

Getting off-topic is a natural occurence in message boards.

Pot: Yo, kettle, BLACK!

What if Greek Organizations were taken out of the schools that ktsnake mentioned and were at only The so called Top Tier Schools?

Where does thast leave schools such as: Florida Tech., Un. of The South (Harvard of The West), Rose-Hulman and others to far to list?


Actually, I would rather go to a Non Top Tier School as many of use would or not get any type of Education at all.

While it might be nice to have a Harvard, Yale or MIT in your resume, one still has to prove themselves on the job.

Can We gat back to Mergers now?