You know, I think it's great to be Panhellenically minded. I also think we should support other Greeks and all that jazz/. However, at the end of the day, I'm still and ADPi and you or that person is still an xyz. First and foremost I support my organization, and SECOND, the greek system as a whole. It's important to remember that PNMs are dropped for a reason. If someone winds up bidless, I'm sorry, but that is life. I think it's wrong to "place" or "ask" (read: beg) a house to reconsider, just so girl can get a bid. If quota is 20, I'm going to give bids to the top 20 on my list. If all those girls accept their bid then number 21 on my list is out of luck. It's mutual selection, I have to want her and I want her to want me. All this talk about "everyone should get a bid" makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me. If everyone could join whatever house they wanted what would be the point in bids or even Recruitment for that matter?

I don't think that everyone should get a bid, either. The Greek system should be selective to a point, when it comes to grades, involvement, etc. From my perspective, I think the problem is that there are women who are worthy of letters who end up bidless... especially at huge recruitments with 1400 PNMs, some great girls fall through the cracks because you can only remember so many girls. It's not that EVERY single girl in the world deserves a bid, or that every girl deserves her favorite house, BUT I think we need to do what we can to (a) help girls not fall through the cracks and (b) help girls remember to consider every house.

Amen.

I don't care if quota was 50 and we had 10...if we were asked by Panhel to reconsider a girl we had previously dropped I think I would tell them to go poop in their hat.

That's not being Panhellenic, that's being condescending to the girl in question and INCREDIBLY condescending to the sorority who gets the "oh poor XYZ doesn't have enough members, they will take anything" treatment.

Now if down the road the girl re-rushes or goes to COB events and we like her then, that's a different matter. That's our idea, not Panhel's.

The places where PNM's are guaranteed a bid require them to go to the maximum number of events each round. If they don't maximize their options then they aren't guaranteed a place.

What it amounts to is that if quota is 20 with guaranteed placement instead of getting 20 you might get 30. All of these women would have come to your pref party - which means per NPC rules they must be on your bid list somewhere. You were willing to give them a bid b/c you invited them to pref and put them on your bid list - so why would you then decide you don't want them when basically they are "free"????

I think the last three posts are talking about a different situation than guarnateed placement. I made mention earlier of CPH calling to see if people would reinvite a woman that was released out of recruitment all together. As I said in a later post, this was for early rounds - NOT for pref. I will add now that I've NEVER heard of a CPH calling to try to get a PNM invited to pref after all chapters had released her and DEFINATELY not an actual bid. In reality guaranteed placement just quota addition without a limit. Quota addition is - I think - 5% of quota. So, in our 20 person situation you could get 1 quota addtion - with guaranteed placement there is no limit.

My problem with guaranteed placement is that it lets the big to get bigger and causes the small to stay small. It is not guaranteed to make all chapters hit quota, just to place more PNMs. So, unless you make quota, it doesn't help you. That being said, guaranteed placement combined with the new release figures may work better. With those who historically better return rates having to release more women, in theory, there should be less that are no bids (meaning less placed through quota addtion or guaranteed placement).

Thanks for clearing that up.

That's not quite as bad, but it should be a request made of all sororities, not just the ones with lower numbers.

Sorry - second long post
 

What many don't understand is that for some greek systems, being Panhellenically minded is the only thing that will save them. I have seen this many places. At my initiating chapter our system lost 3 chapters in 5 years, our recruitment numbers went from 1600 to 600 and a couple chapters have been on the brink of closing for sevaral years.

WHY???

Because we had one of the "toughest" recruitemnts. Recruitment was so cut-throat that women would go to other colleges, pledge a chapter that we had and then transfer in after they were inititated. Everyone was thinking only about themselves and what happened? The whole system was weakened and is only now starting to recover after about 10 years. Numbers have still not gotten back to 1000 and this is the largest public school in the nation.

A system that I'm working with right now can't understand why they are dying. No one is at total - which was recently lowered, they have no support from the University and soon they won't be able to fill their houses b/c they all sleep more than total. They have fewer and fewer women signing up for recruitment. Of course since it's just as easy (or maybe easier) to get a COB, why go through recruitment. Only one chapter will not be able to COB after recruitment. Why is this, because they don't play nice in the sandbox. They don't show any unity, they don't do any positive PR as a group, they can't figure out that if they don't help each other many of them won't be around much longer.

So, being Panhellenicly minded can truly help your system. Now, I'm not saying you have to be so to the extent that you hurt your own chapter. I don't think thats the spirit of it. But, really, there are some things that stronger chapters could do that would help weaker chapters. They just don't want to. Why, who knows for sure. Could be b/c they don't want to break "tradition" or be the one that makes change.

Think about the new release figure method (FRM). All chapters that do formal recruitment are required to use it by 2006. Its aim is to help all chapters, help more women get bids, make our chapters and systems bigger, even the playing field, break fewer hearts (ours and theirs). Why wouldn't you want to try it???? Because it's a change. I've found that my 85 year old grandmother is more receptive to change than some 19 year old chapter members. Because things have "always" been done a certain way they don't want to change things - I would imagine this is why NPC is REQUIRING everyone switch to this by next year.

I think being Panehllenically minded is more about being open to new ideas and actually THINKING about the greek system as a whole.

I now jump down off my soap box.

Re: Sorry - second long post
 

It is funny, that You should Bring this up with Your Great Post.

There seems to be so many inequities with Sororitys and the Number of Women that can or would join but because of situations and circumstances dont.

So and so is the best and "I" want to be with the best.

Do any of You know any Really Bad Sororitys that are Bad?:(

Of course not. There are Chapters that , may be lower for many reasons, not because they are bad people.

We all run throught cycles of Good and Bad. You aint on top all of the time. Forever is a very long time!

Why not join a well known Sorority that is on the downs and outs and make a difference?

thanks tom. i totallty agree. a small chapter doesn't mean they suck or noone wants to join them. its just that alot of women want to join the most popular and biggest group.

my chapter had 6 when i joined, thats right 6, not 60, just 6. that was in FA03. at the end of spring we had 18 and now have 12. we made the most dramatic change on our campus and increased our size the most. plus we had top grades, most service, and huge campus involvement. are women now seeing us as a great sorority? probably not, because we are not at total (45) and are not out partying. the administration, faculty and other many greeks think we are doing great. members of one of the larger sororities also supported us and gave us suggestions for rush and were genuinely excited for us when we got 9 new members this spring. that is what being panhellenically minded is. they didn't help us because they are so good and we aren't. they just brought in some new ideas. and we gave them some too, it really works out well. we don't have to physically rush for smaller groups or thhrow leftovers their way. its mostly the need for moral support and idea exchange. each group has somethign different to offer and that is what is going to get them new members (in a perfect world) and not the actual activities or stuff they have or even a reputation.

our campus does formal way difefrently than most groups here, so i really can't say much about the formal rush side of this discussion. we work mostly in COBing.

Quote:

I will add now that I've NEVER heard of a CPH calling to try to get a PNM invited to pref after all chapters had released her and DEFINATELY not an actual bid.

Unfortunately it does exist like this at Tufts University in MA. Its called Generally Assured Bidding. If a woman is released from all chapters the panhellenic reinvites her to all chapters. The pnm never knows she was released from all groups and picks her top two to pref at (and generally drops the weaker 3rd house - there are only 3)

Then at bid matching no one puts her on their bid list. All the advisors get to sit around and decide who will end up taking whom, until all women (who maximized their opportunities during rush) are placed. Its great fun. NOT.

Its not an NPC policy...its a campus policy and to exist on the campus you have to play the "who ends up with HER" game every year.

And yes everyone who has to get placed does. Sometimes it takes awhile - a little hair pulling, the loosing a few teeth but never cussing because we are ladies, after all!

I happens at my university. We don't have a system like Generally Assured Bidding, however. Essentially how it works is that if a girl is cut right before pref, and it turns out she doesn't have a pref to go to, greek life gives chapters a call to see if they will invite her back to pref. The chapter has a choice on whether or not to invite her back. If they really don't want her back they can say no, or give her another go. The catch is that if Greek Life ask the chapter to take a girl back for pref, they don't have to out her on the bid list. Sometimes it works out and a girl who was cut for less than legit reasons gets another chance, and a bid. Other times it is just cruel, and they end up bidless even if they went to a pref and chapters are under quota.

Sorry - should have said in the instances that it occured it was a request made to all chapters - not just ones with low numbers.

That's when you put them in a hat and draw.

I had a friend that was and andvisor for another GLO and she always thought we should just put all the names in a hat and draw an even for each group on campus. She thought it would save a lot of time, expense and tears.

:D

Re: Re: Sorry - second long post
 

You hit the nail on the head. If only 18 year old PNM's (or collegiate members for that fact) would understand. :(

Now if a group would just figure out if they all joined XYZ "small" chapter . . . hmmm. . . not small (i.e. "bad") anymore!

This may be a good idea from both sides of the aisle. Chapters that NEVER have to COB because they always take quota during formal will be forced to learn how to COB. That way, if Greek Life takes a slow turn, as it often does with changes in the economy, social climate, etc., these chapters will be comfortable with the COB process. Also, if even the strongest chapters participate in COB, even for just a few spaces, it may remove some of the stigma associated with COB on some campuses.

ETA: After thinking more about this, it may actually encourage PNMs to drop out of formal when the almighty ABC drops them. Her thinking may be that they can still get into ABC if they drop out and then COB since every chapter will be forced to take some PNMs in COB. Hmmm... Something like this may neccesitate even more rules. :(

Jocelyn-
That's my point. Since everyone on your campus COBs, it is no big deal (prestige-wise) to either the PNMs or the members. On some campuses, unfortunately, if a group has to COB, they may as well take out a full page ad that they sucked at formal and need to beg for members. Consequently, some groups refuse to COB even though they need to in order to maintain adequate numbers for vitality.

But if everyone had a spring quota it wouldn't be COBing, it would be a semiformal recruitment. There would be party schedules and prefs etc, just like formal. The only real dif btwn this and formal rush is that 1) people aren't anal about how many ballooons, where parties are held, etc and 2) the rushees don't HAVE to attend any event.

It wouldn't help at a big Greek school because like you said, people who got dropped from the groups they want would say "well I'll wait till spring and be one of the 5 they have to take." It would make things worse not better.

Everyone takes COB the wrong way. You can get an entire pledge class through COB without having a single party and advertising that you didn't make quota or whatever. Ask people over for dinner, to campus events you are attending, make sure all the sisters get to meet them and vote on whether or not to give them a bid. COB is supposed to be easy and casual, not necessitate constant parties that take as much planning as formal rush.

I am not sure if this is the case now, but at The University of Kentucky, there use to be an "informal" recruitment in the spring by all the chapters. What may be considered COB I guess. And all chapters publicized this via UK's Panhellenic Council.

While I do not recall the particulars, my understanding is that it was to get the chapters up to total. i.e. there was a limit to the number that each chapter could take. So even the so called "top" chapters would do some sort of spring rush.

The thing is that not every chapter would be eligible. Or be able to take the same numbers. Again, as I recall, it was based on chapter total and not any type of "spring quota". So a PNM could not (should not) "wait" to be picked up by a particular chapter in the spring since there may not be any guarantee that there would be a spot for her.

In any case, since all the chapters COBed (is that even a verb?) in the sping to get to total, it was not considered a "bad thing".

TSteven - what you are describing I think it what is normal on many campuses. The chapters that are not at total after FR are allowed to COB up to total. So at UK I guess that is done officially in the Spring. Some campuses it may be right after FR, whatever. The issue still exists though, as you pointed out, that the big chapters would not COB because they are at total, and therefore not eligible. I think it is wonderful if this is embraced at UK, but unfortunately at some campuses, this same situation (the big groups don't COB, the ones with openings do) leads to the stigma which some GCers are familiar with. So, if that isn't the case at UK, their Panhellenic is doing something right to get the word out in a positive way. Other PHs should take a look at what UK is doing to get PNMs to consider COB chapters even on a big Greek campus.

Exactly. If the PNM is rushing for a second time (or third, or maybe even a fourth time (especially in southern schools)), and she knows that she's not going to get a bid, and she's complaining about the rush fees, then she should not waste her time and money, because there's a good chance that she'll be dropped. She should try informal recruitment or forget about joining the sororities.

I don't like guaranteed bidding, but I think the "call-back" method is a good thing, at least when you are talking about larger recruitments where chapters have to cut girls they would prefer not to. For example, Suzie PNM's older brother is the XYZ house sweetheart. Everyone knows this, and assumes she will go XYZ. Even though they like Suzie, nobody is going to waste an invite on her knowing she will go XYZ. If a chapter found out she had been dropped everywhere and still wants her, that is VERY different from Patty PNM who was in jail in high school and got dropped everywhere because the chapters know this.

Also, I have said this a million times on here, but I will do it once more: chapters make mistakes. When you have 1200 PNMs coming through your house in one day, you WILL mix some of them up. The year I was president, we had two Suzie Smiths, two Jennifer Joneses and THREE Amy Andersons (names obviously changed, but you get the idea). Sure, they had different PNM numbers, but you try putting together an invite list at 4am after rushing all day.

Oh, amen to this! This has happened to so many PNMs I know this year.

At my undergraduate school, we did have guaranteed bidding...that is if you maximized all your options and ranked all your houses after pref, you were guaranteed a bid, even if you only preffed at 1 house. If you were released by everyone before pref, that was a different story, but I dont think that happened too too often. Here was the problem, though......you ended up with some houses taking quota plus and other houses not making it by a long shot.......this was because there was NO panhellenic unity at my school.....dirty rushing was rampant, and so was trash talking between chapters.....and because of this A LOT of girls would drop if they didn't get invited back to the "top three"....so groups that are popluar groups to pref at end up getting quota plus...smaooer chapters get smaller. What's worse is that we had deferred recruitment so that the PNMs have a whole semester of fraternity parties to go too and become well schooled on the stereotypes......it is virtually impossible for a house to move up in status.......but enough for now

How does this work? Say ABC invites 30 girls to pref, and quota is 10. ABC will be at total if it takes quota. So, ABC is fortunate enough that each girl on its first bid list (PNMs 1-10) picks them first also. But, PNMs 18 and 26 only preffed at ABC, and because they maximized their options, are guaranteed a bid from ABC. Does PH allow ABC to take 12 and go 2 over total, or do PNMs 9 and 10 get bumped in favor of PNMs 18 and 26?

I think it varies slightly from campus to campus. Where I advise PNMs 18 and 26 would then get their second or third choice. If their second and third choices matched to quota before they were placed (or they only preffed at one chapter, but maximized their options) they would be hand matched by the recruitment advisors at bid matching. If ABC was their only chapter they should get ABC. If they have preffed other chapters they may end up with bids to one of those other chapters. However, it does not sound like Auburn uses this same system.

This is correct, and the GB says they should be hand placed in the chapter with the smallest total chapter size.

at my school, yes....ABC is allowed to go 2 over total, which is why at the end of FR we'd have 3 or 4 chapters over total and some not even halfway there....great if your a PNM, but awful if your one of the chapters on the losing end of the spectrum

Six years later...what do you think?

At our campus the only PNMs that go bidless are those that suicide and the handful that get dropped right before Pref.