The edit was for a typo. I never said "that the government was out to get us"

If Londoners stopped using the tube the city would ground to a halt. That's how you get around, in and out of London.

And not to sound insensitive, but this isn't the first time a bomb has gone off in London - it has been some time now, so we are quick to forgot all the IRA bombs that constantly detinated around the city, and how people just got on with things.

I feel so sorry for Londoners, and it will be interesting to hear the stories and insights from my and my fiance's family as they arrive from London in Vancouver over the next couple of weeks.

But if Londoners stop taking the tube, the terrorists have won.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/22/op...iedman.html?hp

July 22, 2005
Giving the Hatemongers No Place to Hide
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

I wasn't surprised to read that British police officers in white protective suits and blue gloves were combing through the Iqra Learning Center bookstore in Leeds for clues to the 7/7 London bombings. Some of the 7/7 bombers hung out at the bookstore. And I won't be surprised if today's bombers also sampled the literature there.

Iqra not only sold hatemongering Islamist literature, but, according to The Wall Street Journal, was "the sole distributor of Islamgames, a U.S.-based company that makes video games. The video games feature apocalyptic battles between defenders of Islam and opponents. One game, Ummah Defense I, has the world 'finally united under the Banner of Islam' in 2114, until a revolt by disbelievers. The player's goal is to seek out and destroy the disbelievers."

Guess what: words matter. Bookstores matter. Video games matter. But here is our challenge: If the primary terrorism problem we face today can effectively be addressed only by a war of ideas within Islam - a war between life-affirming Muslims against those who want to turn one of the world's great religions into a death cult - what can the rest of us do?

-Rudey

This might start up some flames, but I agree with the brittish Muslim leadership (from their meeting with Tony Blair) that its not only enough to condem the attacks, but they need to flush out the extreemists within their communities.

I get so tired of the random muslim 'man on the street' whining into a camera and saying that the attacks arent reflective of Islam. Quit bitching and do something about it. (a stretch of an analogy here, but it somewhat illustrates the point of a community working to solve problems) GLO's learned this lesson years ago. We dont just bitch about the media portrayal, but we do community service and give back to our communities, in addition to working to eliminate the behaviors that reflect poorly on us.

Why cant they take control of their communities and work from within to help stop this stuff? They will be the ones that can stop it, not us on the outside of the religion.

This reeks of a "test". It seems as if they are testing London's reactions for a larger scale attack (similar to our 9-11). :(

They shot an innocent man. Looks like somebody was trigger happy.

That may well be. On the other hand, the man was wearing an overcoat on a hot summer day and ran from them. There were allegedly also "wires" coming out of the coat accroding to some witnesses.

That does not give a reason to shoot someone who was down and being subdued -- unless someone thought he was reaching for one of the alleged wires or whatever.

I suspect that the British Police don't have nearly as much experience with deadly force as American cops because most of them don't carry guns.

One of my buddy who live in London told me that Stockwell (the area where the guy was shot) is a very dangerous area. One plausible explanation on why the guy ran is:

(1) He see three persons running toward him.
(2) He panicked thinking these persons wanted mug him
(3) Instinct comes in and he heads toward a crowded area
(4) Fill with adreneline, he doesn't hear any of the orders and he gets shot.

Of course, this is all speculation and an inquiry will be done to get to the bottom on what happen. Either way, it's a tragedy for both the man's family and the officer who shot him.

So, turns out the victim was a Brazilian electrician on his way to work (possibly why people may have seen him with wires!). AND, he had an expired visa and may have run b/c of that (in the article it mentions recent visa checks at tube stations)

I've told my husband, who is Latin but mistaken for Arab all the time, to please put his fiesty ways aside if the cops stop him here and just play nice. Lord knows NYC cops are quick to draw their weapons...:(

From the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

Shooting victim had expired visa

Menezes had been in London for more than three years
The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.

The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.

Relatives of Mr Menezes deny his visa had expired and are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting.

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

A total of five people have been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings and the police have named two suspects.

Muktar Said-Ibrahim, also known as Muktar Mohammed-Said, is suspected of attempting to bomb the Number 26 bus; while Yasin Hassan Omar, 24, is wanted in connection with a bomb on the Victoria line between Oxford Circus and Warren Street stations.

There is also speculation about a fifth bomber, following the discovery of a backpack containing a device in a west London park on Saturday.

Mr Menezes' cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said the police would "kill thousands of people" if they were not held accountable for what had happened.

He said: "They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did. They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Under surveillance

Prime Minister Tony Blair said it was right for Britain to express its "sorrow and deep sympathy" to Mr Menezes' family.

But he said the police must be supported in doing their job.

He added that they would have been criticised had the suspect turned out to be a terrorist and they had failed to take action.

London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".

He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it."

On Friday morning Mr Menezes had left his flat in Tulse Hill and boarded a bus towards Stockwell Tube station to go to work.

He had been followed by police, who had his block of flats under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.

When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.

Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian newspapers.

Police chased him on to a Tube train where he was shot dead.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.

Cancer treatment

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, said she thought the police had acted "like amateurs".

She told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

*****o Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away if - that is indeed what he did do."

Why oh why would anyone be dumb enough to run from the cops? And if the law is similar, the cops there would've had to stay stop or I will shoot. Even if he didn't speak the language, he should've understood that he'd better stop or he's going to get messed up. Especially in light of what has been happening there, there's no way he could've been oblivious to that.

I'm sorry that an innocent man died, but if he would've just stopped, he would be alive today.

The area where he was shot, Stockwell, is a very dangerous area. One plausible scenario is that he saw 3 person running toward him. He panicked and thought that they were muggers.

Interesting that there are some reports that questioned the police assertion that they shouted warnings. I'll try to find the article.

Do the police not wear uniforms or identify themselves?

Really, I can understand the cops. A man wearing an overcoat in this heat, with wires, and running through the subway. They have a short while to react before he blows himself up if he's a terrorist. They made that decision.

Of course, the cops confirmed the kill. The media has somehow found this heinous only in certain countries, but not others. When will the BBC interview the Brazilian's family? Will the British be commiting genocide in regards to Pakistanis as the Guardian would say? Will the papers call the terrorists there freedom fighters and activists?

-Rudey

-Rudey

Can't say I don't agree, but from the article it seems he may have not been thinking about terrorism and more about his expired visa. That's just a guess on my part, obviously.

And, Rudey, I'm pretty sure these were plain-clothes cops. Don't know if they identified themselves, though. But agian, perhaps they did and he ran b/c of the visa issue?

I can see both sides. I understand what Rudey is saying, but I also worry about people being overzealous and this happening a lot more. :(

Public transit is the mjor source of transportation in London.
LOnd is a very small city and it does not have the infrastructure to support everybody and their mother driving.
People cannot just stop using public transportation over there.

That's where it gets scatchy. The cops weren't wearing uniform. They were undercover. The police said that they were shouting orders to the Brazilian. However, eyewitnesses is disputing it. So, who knows what happen.

Well it looks like the case of the Brazilian shot by London police has taken a new turn - leaked security camera footage of the man in question entering the station does not show him running, in fact it shows him casually walking into the station, even stopping to grab a paper, before boarding the train.

It's looking to be more likely a "panic" shooting were the police acted without thinking, in response to the extreme tension and panic about another bomber.

Hmmm.... so does that mean the John Gibson and Bill O'Reilly are still going to be praising the "justifyable" actions of the police in this shooting?

Footage Contradicts London Police Reports
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/britain_b...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
BBC story:
Tube shooting family inquiry call
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4159310.stm