I totally agree bra.

I really don't see what the big deal is over 'paper' members. So they got in a different way than you, get over it. I've been out of school for 3 years now so I guess I might have a different prospective, but really people, there are much more important things to worry about. As long as the ideals and goals of your organization are being upheld, isn't that what matters? The big deal should be over why people want to join the organization. If they want to join the organization because they want to be a part of a group that holds ideals and goals that they respect, then there shouldn't be a problem, if they want to join just to wear the letters and strut around or have something on their resume, then there is a problem (but the latter can be said for people who go through a 'process' too. ALL of our founders had a goal, but brotherhood/sisterhood wasn't the only part, or even the most important part. Most organizations were formed by a group of people who had similar goals and ideas--that is what created the sisterhood/brotherhood, the fact that they shared a common goal and the stuggle to reach it. We shouldn't be looking at the 'intake process,' we should be looking at the person and deciding if they would be an asset to the goals and ideal of our organizations. How they are initiated shouldn't be an issue. I believe in upholding tradition just as much as the next person, but hating someone just because they got in a different way than you is probably what our founders 'least' had in mind.

Peace to all my frats/sorors in Greekdom but especially to my sorors, the Divas of DST.

I finally sat down and read this entire discussion and just had to respond.

I understand the rationale behind implementing MIP but there is a big difference between pledging and hazing. I pledged back in 1986 but was NOT hazed (hit, beat, humiliated, stranded, etc.)

Correct me if I am wrong but hazing is a CRIME in most states. Follow me here: If all "pledge" activities are hazing then pledging must be criminal because hazing is criminal. For example: if walking in line is pledging and all pledging is hazing and hazing is criminal does this mean that walking in line is criminal? COME ON!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif Are they trying to tell me that I can be thrown in JAIL for making someone walk in a line across campus!?! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif This is just an example. What about greetings, dressing alike, line names, social probation, etc.?

I really feel that this is the basis of the entire debate of "real vs paper". Many bonding traditions were lost in this watered down version of the intake process. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif

Unfortunately, one cannot choose their process and should not be treated differently solely for that reason. Because we all know, THE REAL PLEDGING BEGINS AFTER YOU CROSS. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Peace

I have been reading into to this topic gr some time and it is time for me to speak. I am going to say this from the top, If I offend anyone I am sorry. These are my feeling and I am entitle to them.

Anyone after 1990 is a product of MIP. But we need to keep it real, people still and do pledge. But they is a diffenece in between pledging and hazing. A big difference.

I believe there should be a rite of passage. Belonging to such great organzations is a honor not a right. The Nifty Nine has come along way.

The real pledging is when you become a member and you are involved with community projects and trying to keep up with your dues.

When I first became a member of my organization, (where Finer Women are born)I would hear people stating I was the rock of my line, we pledge hard but when I would ask them if there are still active, crickets filled the air.

I do not have a problem if a person is "paper" why because we are all paper after 1990. Besides if the sister/brother knows the history and works hard with in the organization, I do not have a problem. The problems lays with me when a person comes down on another member because the way they were brought in. Is it the new member fault or the Intake coordinator fault. Who is to blame? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I rather take all the "paper" people that will work hard and know there stuff than some that pledge for 4 million years and do not do a damn thing. (sorry for the rough language :eek http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Just remember after 1990 we are all paper according to the NPHC.

Japera (I guess you wonder what the name mean huh)

p.s. if there are any spelling mistakes I am sorry.

I tried my level best not to respond to this topic, but I just have to.

First, I am considered "paper". I was inititated in Nov. 1998. I have heard that term since I was offered membership, and I didn't understand it then, don't understand it now, and don't care! I am a Delta. Period. If I work, I'm a Delta who works. If I wear t-shirts, I'm a t-shirt-wearin'-Delta. That's all there is to it.

Secondly, there is something very sick and twisted about someone who says that "you have to undergo what I undergo to be worth my time." Can you image what our world would be like if our elders had felt the need for the next generations to go through what they went through? We would still be slaves! "Hell no, I plowed the field and picked cotton, so they'll have to plow the field and pick cotton". They wanted to make life better for generations that hadn't been born yet, and your telling me that someone on your campus or in your community, whom you know, can see, have a chance to affect in a drastic and perminant way, is not worthy of your time and respect unless they plowed the field and picked cotton. That's a special kind of self hatred.

Thirdly, That word "respect" gets slung around this debate quite a bit. I personally don't care what people think of me if I don't respect them, and how can I have respect for someone who signed their name to a pledge that they would not participate in nor facilitate hazing or anything outside of the membership intake process of the organization and then did it anyway? That makes you a liar plain and simple, and what do I care what a liar thinks of me? If you have such a problem with the MIP of your orgainzation, don't participate in any way. Make a stand at the rush/smoker and say "I believe that the MIP is a corrupt system, and I won't dignify it with my time or efforts". Otherwise, you have no integrity, and don't be surprised if I regaurd you as such.

Finally, how you came in has no bearing on what kind of brother/sister that person will be for you. It has to do with the kind of brother or sister you've been. Why would you expect a "paper" member to be there for you in the middle of the night if you've been treating him/her like less than a member of the family from the day they met you?

Hi everyone! First I would like to say that I had to cross grad chapter of my organization (via so called paper) and it doesn't make me any less of a soror. I went through a lot of things for two years in order to get into my organization and I feel that no one can approach me concerning my process because of what I went through (and trust me I had gone through some stuff) and I have truly earned my letters. I said all of this to say that It doesn't really matter how you come into your organization its what you do after your in. Are you still financially active, do you participate in community service and so forth.

Tinese
SGRHO
saying it in 22 ways

I have to agree with Gina_lynn. I am a paper member of a BGLO. I was given the opportunity to be involved in the underground line.I have parents who are very active in their respective greek organizations, who know the bylaws and standards, and who were pledged/hazed and pleged/hazed others in the early '70s. My parents knew the signs of pledging and PROMISED me they would report any illegal activites to the appropriate officials if I did not remove myself from the situations . But I did go through a process with the other sorors who were not invited on line. A soror who had gone through 5 of 6 weeks of underground pledging and had to drop because her father threatend to report the activities to the school taught us everything she had learned in her 5 weeks online. Grant it, I wasn't out to 6am on a school night and I did not let somebody try to demean me, but I was processed in one way or another. Many sorors in my chapter are under the impression My line sisters and I know nothing about our organization and try to exclude us as much as possible even from official meetings, not just the social events. I know the poems, founders, chapter founders, dates, purpose, etc. And I love XYZ. (Because of my love for XYZ, I will not air her business by naming her). I refuse to let anyone make me feel like I am less of a member. I refuse to let anyone make me feel like I do not love XYZ, if i didnt love it I would have let my parents expose the illegal activities. I love the sorors in my chapter and all sorors nationally regardless of how they feel about me. I do not expect to be shown mad love, but respect me as a member.
I am sure this is getting lengthy, but let me get to my points. Do not assume that "paper" members know nothing about your respective organizations. Do not assume "paper" members are not quality, didn't you vote them in, so there must have been some attraction to these people. Think about the reasons why some are paper before you judge and decide not to show love.

And to other "paper" members. I know it is discouraging at times but don't let anyone steal your joy. Do your community service, participate in programs, make suggestions, and stay active. Remember there is another world after undergrad and this paper/real think won't even matter in a few years.

SO DOES ANYONE WHO HAS DONE ENOUGH RESEARCH!
Lots of interests know this information and can recite it in their sleep. From incorporation dates to what a founder's favorite hobby is. From purposes and programs to naming the different regions. From why XYZ sorority uses this kinda animal as a symbol (cause one of the founders collected them) to what the different colors stand for. seriously the only thing they need now is to take a quiz, pay some money, sign a paper and their no different than those who went through m.i.p.! Pledging is what seperates the men from the boys and the girls from the women. and with that, I'm out!

I got luv for all my bruhs, regardless of how they came in. I can only speak with certainty about my yard. One of my sorors told non-greeks that her process was only two weeks long and she was inactive for the remaider of her college career. Do I respect her no. But you cannot blame a person for their process because they could not control it. You can blame a person if they only want to step, party hop, call, wear letters, or get some. Do work people, that's all.

This is a subject thet will not die...


Believe me I have sen two sides of the spectrum, a chapter of XYZ fraternity pledge members one semester and the next semester did MIP. Believe me the 2 gentleman who went MIP go to all the chapter meetings and events, and are active in student government etc. while the pledged bros will be the first ones there at a party, AND NOTHING ELSE. I can't call someone who has to brutally beat me to be down with him brother/sister, however I will call them MENTALLY UNSTABLE!

it is sad to hear some of the comments on this board although i respect everyone's right to an opinion. I agree with the Iota member he made very valid points, but at this point i am really just concerned that my organization doesn't get sued out of exsistence by someone whom we didn't choose to put on line and they ended up calling nationals, or because of some crazy soror (just being real) who gets her kicks out of beating on her fellow black sisters.

it is true that some people do not have any love for members after 90 or those who didn't get to pledge, or chose not to do so. so if you are thinking of going greek, THINK AGAIN because I have seen grown people act a fool over this topic. I wish they would have more concern for the struggling inner city youths or the chapter meeting they are not attending again this month. i do think it rather hypocritical to say you will uphold the frat/soror and then in the next breath break all the governing rules, i guess some people are just that selfish. but i've learned that a fool will not listen to reason, oh well.

i have seen the divisiveness that is going on and it is heartbreaking. but my solution is to work in my chapter to do what is right, and that is to make strong members, build sisterhood (the right way)and to work for the community which is our goal (some of us) perhaps if i had been beaten to a bloody pulp and humiliated while on line i would be bitter too, and want to bring the wrath on others that come after me, but that wasn't the case.

Mip has some flaws, but at least those who go through it are following the direction given by our organizations and i can't help but to respect someone who in the face of adversity does what is right, rather then to follow the crowd and people please. i find it hard to respect someone who spends their life judging others instead of using their energy to do the work they said they would do when they first saw the light. i hope that every greek that is so adamant about this topic is also adamant about getting their check to nationals this coming year so they can really make a difference where it counts.

how would you feel if a frat/soror didn't respect or show you love because you were not made at alpha chapter, or at a HBCU or on the east coast or in a chapter chartered by a founder? think about it.

are sorors/frat whose chapters are being reinstated after a suspension (and wanted to pledge) and have no current members to pledge them, are they considered paper too? is it their fault the members before them got suspended? or should we just not take any new members in those chapters, heck let them stay inactive. active chapters vs paper, hmmmm. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

My point was that it has been explained to me by several Sorors who I have known for a long time who did go through a pledging process that the sorors in my chapter do not respect/accept me because they feel I know the things they learned about my chapter and National organization and the many other things that are privliged by membership.
I understand that many people see me as less of a member and their opinions will never change on this topic. But those who mature with age should come to the understanding that a pledging process does not make someone a better member, but one's character makes them a better member. My point?....Don't be a hyprocrite. I've learned through my own life lessons with my sister that LOVE and sisterhood is unconditional. And when you enter a greek oganization you are entering a brother/sisterhood where your love is unconditional.

Love is not unconditional. If you did not pledge my frat, yeah I love you as a black person but if you are an Alpha and did not pledge I could care less about you on the brotherhood level. For the girl who said, what if the chapter is suspended. Well, the suspended chapter should just continue making new members. That way the chapter still continues despite nationals. Now a lot of you skated and I understand this so this sounds absurd to you.

I can not believe all the people who say that the national organization says its this way so screw what our founders wanted. 7BA94 said it best if MIP was what the founders that is all we would know. This includes all of you in sororities. If your founders wanted this, then MIP would be all you know. Do you think if the founders were alive they would like MIP. He!! No. I understand Iota was founded under different pledging priniciples from the rest of NPHC so not pledging is ok with there founders. If pledging was so wrong, why didn't the founders get rid of it. The Q also said it well our founders were all young and we trust the priniciples those young people developed. Yet we can not trust todays young people. That is ridiculous.

Then some ridiculous girl tried to compare pledging with slavery, absolutely upsurd. Slavery was imposed on people. People who pledge are there willingly. They can leave at any time. A slave did not have this option. Pledging is a choice; a person can choose not to be a part at any time. The reason people sue is they get mad most of the time about there own failure and want to lash out, or there parents get mad, or just pure greed.

Long post for a long topic. To all who skated, I'm sorry you had no heart to go through the process correctly the way the founders wanted things. Mad love to all my Ice Cold Bruhs.

<b>7BA94</b>...Oops I mean't to say <b>1906</b> - you are cracking me up!

So what do you think about honorary members?

Then we have the issue of "ghost" members. Wasn't this discussed in another thread?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1906:
For the girl who said, what if the chapter is suspended. Well, the suspended chapter should just continue making new members. That way the chapter still continues despite nationals.

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mccoyred

Dynamic
Salient
Temperate

How very sad.....I hope you are not a parent. I for one am glad that my parents, sister, husband and most of all my GOD love me unconditionally. True love, agape love, is unconditional.

First off the post I think makes it quite clear, if not I am clarifying it know, that fraternal love is not uncoditional. I think that should be nuff said. You must of skated.

1906 -- Do you feel the same about honorary members? They did not pledge.

Fraternal means brother so fraternal love should be like brotherly love. Do you not love your (blood) brothers because you went through something that they did not? "Skating" has nothing to do with it. I understand the concept of love. You do not.

If they did not pledge they are not my frat brother, there is no need to show them love on that level. I still think you skated, or maybe you are not in a GLO.

10/3/00 <Note: I have checked my temper and clipped the unnecessary jabs I made last night>

This is so sad and futile.

Hating on people who have no control of their initiation, when the POWER is within the CURRENT members to CHANGE things. Uh huh. So, where's the logic? Just admit your desire to beat someone is not logical, just reflexive and traditional, and I will let it go.

Did I tell y'all 'bout my X, A Nupe? Got so pissed at the fact he couldn't bring people in properly, he went inactive. HMM. How about- you elect men/women who agree with your principles?

As an interest, this is really dismaying. Because, I being who I am, if you step to me on that immature a level and expect me to pimp myself and get slapped by someone other than my mama, you will undergo a Salient test of your sanity. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif

Is this why we as a people have not progressed as far as we should have http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif?

LOL (wryly with a hint of despair)

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@~~^~~~~
The most beautiful thing in the world is, precisely, the conjunction of learning and inspiration.
-- Wanda Landowska

[This message has been edited by Salience (edited October 03, 2000).]

Salience, you are in no position to state a "qualified" opinion, though you are entitled to your specious and un-informed one. Did any pro-pledging person mention or justify abusing anyone? Did anyone say that if they didn't smack you in the face that they would not consider you a soror? I have been a member of my frat for more than 10 yrs without ever smacking, injuring, or humiliating another Black man, however everyone under my jurisdiction PLEDGED their A$$ off. Some dropped, some didn't want it enuff, some were cat, but the REAL MEAN made it. If pledging isn't for you, if you can't humble yourself, or if you think you deserve the letters because you have the grades and some community service, so be it. If you feel what 100,000 other women went thru to get their letters is beneath your dignity, thats cool also, but you want whatever sorority you want because of the traditions and the people who pledged under those same traditions built and stand for. And can we please drop the argument about the "founders not pledging" The founders designed the pledge process. They were alive during the worse periods of hazing and not one of the Elite 8 founders tried to ban pledging. One of my founders was chairman of the Pledge Committee til he died in 1972. If he designed and oversaw the pledge process, thats good enough for me.

Doggy: where did I say I was "qualified?" This is ADMITTEDLY strictly my opinion. And what IS your conceptualization of the term qualified? What is the meaning of the term is? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif Oh, I get it: b/c I'm not in a BGLO, I should shut the hell up about a topic that may, should I be blessed by a grant of membership, affect me one day. K. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Wow, I read so many replies, not sure, but I can concede the point, for argument's sake, that they didn't. For NOW. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif But, people who are pro-pledging have mentioned taking wood as acceptable. Eh, I dunno, I think that can be humiliating and violent.

K, Doggy? <blinking coquettishly> What do you consider pledging? Congrats to you for your vision and patience.

Wait, hold up. Let me clarify the point of my late night rant, which in my verbose nature, may have been obscured:

Greeks who pledged hating on Initiates who COULD NOT HELP THE WAY THEY CAME IN, to me, is sad and futile. Why are they called paper, when THEY did NOTHING directly to bring about the MIP? Those folks who sued, called your Headquarters, beat down pledges, pimped pledges, etc., are more culpable. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Further, you have no idea what I am willing to go through, sacrifice for, and work towards in my pursuit. I can't say, "sure, walking in line is no biggie," or "wearing white tee shirts and blue jeans everyday is cool," and "social silence is fun." I cannot say what I will or won't do, that's just insane, I know I'm not running anything. You can throw pebbles at my integrity, imply a lack of understanding of historical significance, and suggest misplaced snobbery. I know you're off the mark, and I would expect you to be- we don't know each other. So, you have your opinion, but I wouldn't call it "qualified."

Hey, Dawg... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif whatever you say. I have no idea, and will completely defer to your knowledge as a Son of Blood and Thunder. I have no clue what the Four Founders (or another org's Founders) were about. Because, I really did mean the violent, demeaning, reprehensible aspects of hazing, not "pledging."

See, Doggy? It's not hard to get along with me...

Kisses!

Sal

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@~~^~~~~
The most beautiful thing in the world is, precisely, the conjunction of learning and inspiration.
-- Wanda Landowska

[This message has been edited by Salience (edited October 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Salience (edited October 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Salience (edited October 03, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Salience (edited October 05, 2000).]

If you are paper you are paper! If someone makes you that is paper then you are still cat! So there are paper is processing more paper in this world! Give them a match so we can burn them all and use the ashes for new growth in the yard.

Why are BGLO members so squeamish about change? People that can't respect initiated members because they didn't pledge are lame. Get over your stupid male pride. Anyone who says "If you didn't pledge, I don't respect you as a brother" obviously shouldn't be in the brotherhood because you just don't get it. End of story.

I just have a quick comment! What is the big deal about being "paper"? Correct me if I am wrong but weren't the founders of these organizations "paper"? I am not greek, but this seems so petty to me...

P.S. so you all who went through a process think you were more worthy than your founders? It would seem to me that the majority of you are probably not active,t-shirt wearers who only pledged for the letters. I bet the founders are rolling over in their graves! Besides some of these orgs are based on christian principles, what is christian about demeaning someone, beating the crap out of someone, disrespecting someone? And furthermore who with any class about themselves would want anyone who allows those things to be done to them in their "dignified " organization, and why would the one pledging allow it to be done?S

This person either skated or isn't in a BGLO.

You are not in an organization so you can not possibly understand the point of this conversation.

I did *not* skate. Trust me on that one. But, now that I'm a full-fledge member of the house, I want to see the intake process changed. It's not the way our founders envisioned it, and it's not right. I want it changed. Just because I didn't skate doesn't mean someone else should go through what I did.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Nobody102:
[B] I did *not* skate. Trust me on that one. But, now that I'm a full-fledge member of the house, I want to see the intake process changed. It's not the way our founders envisioned it, and it's not right. I want it changed. Just because I didn't skate doesn't mean someone else should go through what I did.

Things you do while you pledge are supposed to make you feel better about the org. When you hear someone say the org is just ok I am not getting anything out of it, or the only thing the kids do is mess it up, you have to look and see if that person is really feeling what you feel. Of course none of the founders pledged in these orgs. but the bonding later made it better. You still have to meet certain requirements to be apart so what are you saying. If it is like that we would be like the Iota's Bringing people in from the street. So the statement just anybody can't be apart of my org. should stand forever.
Informer

This ridiculous!! Why is the person blamed for being paper. It is not their fault that they can not be pledged. DAMN!!! I want to a part of xyz sorority, and if I have to be paper, so be it! xyz sorority is what I love and I will become a part of it (regardless of the process). S***, what am I supposed to do, stay in school for ten years to see if I can get pledged. I will not wait any longer, I have prepared myself for this sorority, and I want it now!! If someone doesn't like the MIP process, then post pledge the paper members (I guess thats possible). Don't hate, try and help them. Everything is supposed a secret anyways.

I want to pledge a grad chapter. But why when you choose to do that, like if a chapter is suspended or something, they say "well, UNFORTUNATELY you'll have to wait to go grad." Why is it unfortunate if you're becoming the member of the sorority you have dreamed of all your life? Please explain.

Interested in grad:
There could be one of two reasons.

There is a difference in the experience of undergrad. You are usually all on campus, can get together, don't usually have kids serious jobs etc.

The other they are "afraid" that you won't pledge, yadda, yadda.

I say you do what YOU have to do.

I too am interested in pledging a graduate chapter but I've heard that people who pledge when they are graduate students arent respected as full members, similiar to people who get over on paper.

I'm willing to take the "process" as a graduate student, if needs be. I just want to be a part of a great organization, and unfortunately, it didnt fit into my undergraduate situation. Why are there so many issues?

I am not a paper member of m frat, but who cares if a person is paper or real these days.....I don't have time worrying about who is paper & who is real....What is real?....I pledged..I do mean just that...I PLEDGED.....History teaches us that no matter how you think you are so real someone out there is thinking that you are paper & didn't pledge hard enough...To be honest...I wished when I pledged..I only had to sign a piece of paper & learn a little history....how I see it, if you step to the wrong person calling them paper..you are liable to get your ass kicked.....As long as you are doing good for the organization-you are a brother of mines......To my Brothers in the Bond......The Honorable Kappa Alpha Psi Inc....Yo Yo

God I luv my frat brothers.

Burning Sands, you do our founders proud.

MN

I believe that a sister is a sister and a brother is a brother. These organizations were founded under the principles of sisterhood/brotherhood, service, and scholarship, not under the ignorant notion that many members believe: No pain No gain!.
These organizations are businesses, they're not just about stepping or chanting, etc. Pay your dues! Be Active ! Then tell me about how paper burns and sandz last forever! Every member gets that same piece of paper! I could give less than a darn about how you get there, it's about what you do when you get there! As a member of a black greek organization, I'm not knocking pledging, but there is a difference between pledging and hazing. And since, many ignorant folks have made hazing and hurting and even killing the process instead of pledging, it divides our organizations, something I know our founders would roll over in there graves over! This new process of hazing is not what they went through to bring forth these organizations, and it should not be something future memebers have to go through to ensure perpetuity! During the pledging process my big sisters stressed the importance of sisterhood, but do not get along with the "paper members" of their same organization, what hippocrites!!! If this is what it is to be apart of such GREAT organizations ( and they are great!) I would advise a prospect to really consider before joining or attempting to join. Looking back, I would question a person's mental stability if they were willing to go through being beat and ridiculed in order to be apart of an organization. Dying to fit in! It's a shame!

This is sad.
I think nationals should implement a stipulation where Interests sign waivers (which release them from pledges seeking lawsuits against the chapter/ org). MIP only came about from the various lawsuits.

Pledging bonds. You can only feel the organization near and dear to your heart when you have truly earned your letters. Its been going on for years. Its one thing for MIP members to be told 'its okay to be paper' by the MIP coordinater, and the have your letters ripped off once your visting another yard.
MIP should be abolished. We need more pledged (NOT hazed) members.

Speaking as a paper member myself, the level of respect i get is appalling. I think its a wicked thing to create segregation between members of the same org by putting fear into people's hearts about trying to get pledged.

If anyone can help me with this feel free to PM me
one_longing_for

Unfortunately, many "members" equate "no pain, no gain" with wood, swats, beating, etc.

Every year a few instances end with somebody going to the emergency room, or telling their mother, etc., and the dean and the press get involved.

BGLOs and all GLO need NO MORE bad publicity, and hazing produces too much.

I wish it could be stopped.