n/m.

My brother (a Phi Psi) went to Cabo for the leadership school last spring break. He had to pay for airfare out there, but that was basically it. I was very jealous!

I expect to start hearing from Chi Phi any minute. Bairds, the "bible" of fraternity history, recognizes Kappa Alpha Society, the oldest of the Union Triad, as the oldest social fraternity. "Claiming" and "proving" are two different things. I can show independent sources for our founding in 1832. Kappa Sigma has had 150 years to prove their antiquity. I believe the phase is "put up, or shut up".
On the original topic, Alpha Delt is more concerned about being the best fraternity, not the biggest. We choose not to charter organizations at every directional school (Northwest State College, Eastern Massachusetts University etc). I get a fresh inquiry every three weeks or so about starting ALpha Delt at various schools, but we choose not to go that way. If that makes us snobs, then so be it. Alpha Delt is well known amongst the top schools in North America. That's all we care about.

Interesting, I wasn't even aware there were Greek letter societies in the 1400s, particularly in Europe...

There weren't. That's the point.

Every time someone jumps on GC thumping their chest and proclaiming they were founded in 1400 in Bologna, I feel compelled to speak up. I usually regret it afterward because some Kappa Sigmas inevitably feel I'm maligning them. That's not the case at all, so I'll try to tread more lightly this time... (no promises though, IyamwhatIyam)

Kappa Sigma is a great organization with a solid history, but I wish they would emphasize with new members that the Bologna history is a parable, and that there is no direct evidence linking the KS society in Bologna to modern day Kappa Sigma. The Chrysoloras backstory is a fantastic thematic foundation for a fraternity ritual - truly, one of the best among all fraternity rituals, and I've pretty much seen them all - but it's just that and not more.

Many times I see someone reply that the proof is esoteric and only available to members. But this is not true either. I'm giving nothing secret away by saying that the printed ritual and associated documents say no more about the connection between the two groups than the public histories do. Older and/or wiser Kappa Sigma alums concur in private messages to me over the years.

Now this "clay jug with the greek letters" thing is something I've started hearing only recently, and I'm inclined to put it in the greek urban legends category. It's got that vague urban-legendy feel to it, doesn't it? And anyway, the original group didn't use the greek letters Kappa and Sigma for their name, so this one's a little fishy. Maybe some greek dude named Kevin Smith left his monogrammed beer stein behind after vacationing in Italy, who knows. But OK, maybe that's true. Even if true, it doesn't really prove anything anyway - no one disputes the existence of the original group. The dispute is whether the original group was anything more than an inspiration for Mr. Jackson who in the 1880s (10+ years after the founding, mind you, with no prior mention of the story anywhere!) was trying to add some thematic elements to the original bare bones 1860s ritual to compete with the more "flowery" rituals of his contemporaries. He was trying to "gild the lily" (or I should say "gild the apple" ;) ), and as I said, I think he really did a great job. But guys, it's allegory, not history.

(Oh, by the way ksig, the modern history claims, as you do, that McCormick was the famous European vacationer. But in 1887, Jackson writes that it was Hollingsworth, Rogers, Dunlap and others who were traveling in Europe. Not McCormick. McCormick, a wealthy capitalist from Chicago, was brought in later along with Semmes and Toadwin. So the "facts" are still somewhat confused to this day.)

But here's the thing that seals it for me: If evidence of a direct link existed, Kappa Sigma could show it without revealing any more information than what is already publicly available. Yet they haven't. Also, I have fairly detailed ritual discussions with half a dozen senior Kappa Sigma men including two past national officers, and they acknowledge such evidence does not exist.

I wouldn't go as far as tallgreekalum did and say put up or shut up. I wish I could think of a less provocative phrase, but I can't at the moment. So I'll just make this plea: Can't you guys be proud of a strong heritage and a very moving allegorical ritual without trying to lord this "founded in 1400" thing over people all the time? Can't we have a real debate about this historical detail without people getting defensive and playing the secrecy card? Again, all the material relevant to the debate is exoteric anyway.

I wrote a [typically long-winded] essay on this subject about a year ago. It's maybe 90% complete, so maybe I'll finish it up, get it blessed by Kappa Sigma to make sure it doesn't include anything truly esoteric, and then post it.

But somehow I think this assertion will persist, despite. If someone ever starts a thread on oldest greek urban legends, this one predates Betty Crocker, the moon landing and even the library of congress.

Respectfully [FWIW] submitted,
wptw

Wow, I didn't know that Alpha Delt was so prestigious....you guys just cherry pick the good ones!

wptw - as always, great comment.

I agree. It is hard to hear these claims (and those of Chi Phi) so many times without getting just a bit annoyed. Thank you for stating the case less provocatively and more throughly.

I read somewhere that Lambda Lambda Lambda has the most Rhodes Scholars.

That wouldn't surprise me a bit.

to say that one fraternity is completely dominant i think would be ignorant. Most fraternities to my understanding are dominant in their founding areas mostly and then are strong in other areas as well, its a regional and local thing.

SAE for example was founded at Bama, and they are very strong in the SEC schools, i haven't heard much from them in the Northeast, but they have a strong national presence.

I think every fraternity has their "stomping grounds" so to say where they have been strong and will stay strong... but for the most part fraternities like Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha, Kappa Sigma, Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Sigma Phi Epsilon, etc. (not trying to leave anyone out but you get the idea) will for the most part atleast be decent at schools where they are because of the big name.

I know at UVA though fraternities like St. Elmo's Fire which is an extremely small GLO is pretty dominant.

it all comes down to what school or region in particular we are speaking about.

KSIG secrets
 

the reason why im guessing our organization must not and can not reveal it is because it is still a secret that you dont know unless you are in it.....or a angry KE got pissed off after ebing kicked out and decided to blab....
but im pretty sure this isnt secret

to this day in congress they have on file all the rituals and etc... and have witnessed them when a while back( i forget the year) the govt was really cracking down on hazing when people started dying left and right. So they ordered all to show before them what they do and ensure that it was harmless. well during this time one of the members in charge in congress was a KE alumni and made it so we did not have to show anything so even to this day we are the only ones who no one has seen them done

and the 1400's thing......i wont argue about it because i know everyone here has things they know about a greek organization that cant be said. so im not really tryin to pick a fight. more kinda say if you wanna ask

what is thee oldest fraternity in America i havent a clue
but oldest in the world is a different story.. you guys have to think that our country is still very young and chances are over in europe thhey still have them just a lot of us dont bother to look around or ask...

i tend to tell people at my school the following phrase

oh your not greek?
no ones perfect lol .....they know its all in good fun.

Sorry, but that is an urban myth (or Greek urban myth, like the 'brothel laws'). I do not believe that the Library of Congress (who I guess you are refering to when you say Congress) has any rituals on file. When did government officials order the fraternities to show their rituals?

And, while there have unfortunately been cases of people dying due to hazing, I do not believe that people were "dying left and right".

As LaneSig said, a Greek Urban Legend. The one thing that changes with the telling is whether it was Reagan who kept the Teke ritual out, Truman who kept the Lambda Chi ritual out . . . .

Actually both are not myths

I know for a fact that ours is not on file for the following reasons
I have been there numerous times when i lived in Dc being stationed in the army and actually looked there for hard copies and found nothign while i did find other fraternities ritual books there but they were in a different section.. i asked and the guide said when they did it they put them in a different seciton etc..... to discourage thoose checking on it

and as for the brothel thing im guessing your talking about cities saying no to sororities wanting houses atleast thats the way it is in flint.
That is not a myth i asked a judge who lives by our house and am a police officer now and looked up county laws and it says in it (i cant remember exact words) no place shall allow its residents to be of 5 or more females belonging to a Female only organization which i ncase would therefore be considered a brothel.......

Its a stupid law and if you ask me pretty sexist especially in flint. Which is becoming a big college town when we have u of m flint,baker,mott,and kettering all within 3 miles of each other.

I pologize for my typing also my wrist is busted up

bird+me on crotch rocket= hurt hand

Wait...you know for a fact it's not a myth because you haven't seen them?

Give us a link to the law to prove it.

ETA: Why does every person wanting to disprove the brothel myth forget the exact wording :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

Ritual looker.

I also call shenanigans on this because the LoC catalog is RIGHT THERE ON THE INTERNET and doesn't list any GLO rituals as far as I can see.

There definitely aren't any fraternity rituals in the Library of Congress. Not because some highly placed alum pulled it, but because they were never there to begin with. Here's a good explanation (.pdf document) courtesy of Sigma Chi.

A sufficiently motivated person could also search the Library of Congress' catalog, as Sen stated, right here.

I feel dumberer after reading that.