1. People in different professions do learn new things everyday. And since they are all different professions it isn't the same kind of knowledge. So I'm confused why law is more intellectually stimulating vs. teaching or another profession. :confused: Teachers, business people, or even doctors learn new things. Microbiologists learn new things. Chemists learn new things. There is no real way to measure the amount people learn in their professions across the board to compare it to others.

2. You never said one was better than the other (literally), however you did say that you couldn't believe that teachers were making more than you do since you have a law degree.

3. Chances are there are also a ton of lawyers out there that are probably as smart as doorknobs too. If you never had any teachers of any kind- elementary, high school, college, law school, or even those LSAT prep courses (do they have those?), you wouldn't be a lawyer.

That's not what makes me mad. What makes me mad is that people seem to think that a teacher with a masters should be making much less than someone else with a masters. That's insane. Or that a teacher with a bachelors should be making $17,000. That also is insane.


And I said it SEEMS unfair that basketball players make that much. I understand WHY it is.

And I don't know how many Wachovia bankers you know, but I know a lot since I'm from Charlotte. And trust me, they're FINE on money. And they earn every penny of it, too.

1) It's not the same kind of knowledge. A teacher isn't learning new things about calculus everyday, or reading. It's a different kind of knowledge to me. I don't view everything you learn in life as the falling in the same category.

2) Being paid more money doesn't necessarily equal better. People can assume all they want, I don't care, but I know what I meant.

3) There are many more barriers to being a lawyer. You have to do well in college. You have to score well enough on the LSAT. You have to get through law school. You have to pass the bar. So while I agree there are many lawyers out there that have the common sense of a doorknob, you have to be of a reasonable intelligence level to be a lawyer.

I never said I hated teachers or that they had no value. But my high school teachers, and I can reasonably deduct which ones are making the $75K, are NOT worth that, especially when there are many thing that they did not prepare me for.

Re: Teacher's salaries
 

Reminder of the original post... Did you ever think that maybe the 1/3 have masters or doctorates with years of experience? Maybe it's not so sad that someone with more experience in their field is making more than you?

I now nominate pool boys to earn at least $300,000 because they are smart and this will increase the flow of smart pool boys into the industry.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

No, because this is MY school and I KNOW the teachers. There are only a very few doctorates. And as I said earlier, people with a PhD I understand. I don't think all of them have masters, especially the ones who have been there long enough to make the top bucks. Many of the ones with more experience were some of the worst teachers, who were only there in body until their retirement. As a previous poster said, having us watch movies while they read a book.

I'll second that, only if there's a requirement that they're all really hot and will be at the very least, shirtless.

I will, of course, have a pool, when I make over $600K a year as an attorney......

How do you know what a teacher is learning every day? Do you think they all learn some concepts and do nothing but regurgutate them over and over for years until they die a miserable, unintelligent death? I'm sure teachers learn all kinds of new ideas and subjects and all kinds of things -- they have to stay current.

On the other hand, I know plenty of stupid attorneys who don't learn anything new ever and just recite the same old B.S. crap every day in court.

Maybe you're the one who needs to be writing letters.


It's not a very good comparison, though. An entry-level lawyer versus a 60-year-old teacher who has 30 or 40 years of experience? By the time you get to be their age you'll be making tons more.

Re: Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

If there was a problem with teachers back then, maybe something should have been done about it back then. If no one tells them they aren't doing their job, they are going to keep doing it the way they were.

Re: Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

I think what you are reacting to is more about the issue of teacher tenure rather than a teacher's salary. I personally support tenure because I don't believe that teachers should be fired for being "unpopular" or for teaching unpopular topics or views but there is a lot of concern about whether teacher tenure insulates people who aren't doing their job from getting fired.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

As a 17 year old kid (or younger) I didn't have any power.

And that's another BIG problem, is that with the unions, there's not much that can be done, especially to the "well-tenured" teachers, unless they do something illegal. The only teacher that I knew that was let go had called a black student the n-word in class.

:) thank you valkyrie

Right. Most teachers are studying up on the latest concepts in fiber optics to teach to those whipper snapper 7 year olds.

-Rudey

I'm not looking for something that's not in your post, I was commenting on what you did say. And yes, I know plenty of stupid teachers, I'm sure there are some stupid lawyers out there too that you know. Education does not equal intelligence.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

Even when they do something illegal, they are not let go. They are moved to desk jobs somewhere because the union can do that - unless it's incredibly heinous. And let's not all forget their pensions either.

-Rudey

whatever Rudey... it might not apply to kddani's old school, but every teacher I knew did attend lots of workshops and things to learn new teaching techniques and ideas. And I know this because my mom worked in the school district I attended and she'd be at those same workshops.

I'm really sorry you didn't enjoy your teachers or appreciate all the crap they did for you, but I do.

You underestimate the skills that good teachers have. No, it is not as complex as being a nuclear physicist. I never said it was, and I have no personal knowledge of the salaries of those who work in that field.

And it's not "someone" who told me that my state is suffering from a lack of teachers. All over the state, open slots are being filled with lateral entry teachers, who have college degrees but no training in education. These teachers then work in the schools while simultaneously taking a limited number of classes in methodology to be granted a teaching certificate. Not to mention that many programs like music, art, family and consumer sciences, foreign language, and vocational education are being scaled down or dropped altogether because there are not enough appropriately trained teachers to fill those positions. Education, both at the elementary and secondary level, is one of the fields with the highest demand for employees right now.

Hey I didn't say anything. I said those teachers are learning about fiber optics and I hear next year a couple of them are doing all they can to learn about string theory. There are also some really brilliant 3rd grade teachers who are learning about the Black-Scholles model because they have a nack for financial math.

-Rudey

What are the skills since I underestimate them?

And since someone didn't tell you, do you actually have proof that your state is understaffed on teachers and is hiring incredibly untrained ones? Or is this just hearsay? And how does it compare with other fields? Perhaps law firms are hiring untrained lawyers.

-Rudey

...not amused :)

They're not required to buy a house, but it's assumed that if they rent, property taxes will be passed on to the renter by the landlord. If you're renting in a district w/ lower taxes, your rent will be lower. The percentage of people, period, who rent in the area is very small.

The thing is that they are pushing binding arbitration which could result in increased taxes for the residents of the school district. If they're not residents, they don't really give a rat's rump if taxes go sky high.

I just wanted to interject a quick comment re teacher unions. I think everyone is over-estimating their power.

In the county where both of my parents were teachers, the teacher's union was little more than a company union. It didn't really do much for the teachers, if anything at all. I know several teachers who were terminated even though they were part of the teacher's union.

Sure, it's probably not like that everywhere, but it just surprises me to hear about teacher's unions having such "power." (of course, it's also surprising to hear about teaching salaries higher than $50,000.)

Also, how can these teachers strike? I thought it was illegal for teachers to strike.

Finding random statistics on the Internet is not my strong point. But I will direct you to this website, about North Carolina education, which specifically states:

"Our state is experiencing an unprecedented demand for additional public-school teachers. In fact, over the next ten years North Carolina public schools will need over 100,000 new teachers. This year alone, we expect to hire more than 12,500 teachers."

and

"While traditional teaching programs of colleges and universities in and beyond our state continue to help fill many new positions, these institutions cannot completely satisfy our urgent and growing demand for new teaching professionals. As a result, we need to look beyond the traditional sources."

Teach4NC


So make of that what you will. I personally know several people who have procured teaching positions recently through the lateral entry program as well.

I did not state that these untrained teachers were village idiots, as they do have collegiate degrees. But teaching methodology is not something that is innate... it requires training and practice, which these alternatively-liscensed teachers will not have until AFTER they have already been placed in the classroom. Unless you can demonstrate that law firms are hiring lawyers who did not go to law school, then it's obviously not the same.

Edited to add: Regarding the salary discussion in this thread, this website, which is a part of the NC Department of Public Instruction, states that the beginning salary for a first-year teacher with a bachelor's degree is $25, 420. After 30 years of experience, this amount increases to $45,680, or $51,160 if the teacher becomes National Board certified. Additionally, it is $27,970 for first-year teachers with master's degrees, $50,250 for 30+ experience, and $56,280 for NB certified.

Sorry to double-post, but here is the link for NC Teach, if anyone is interested.

NC Teach

The teacher's union just has a huge amount of power here, as I'm learning that's certainly not commonplace elsewhere.

It's not illegal for them to strike (not sure if this is state or federal governed, I don't know much about education law), but I think they can only strike for so long before they have to return to work. But it's still at least a couple weeks. And all the time has to be made up. Which means some schools end up going to the end of June or even into July, and having almost no breaks

So you're asking about teacher's striking, didn't realize how much teachers make on average and on the high end, and are delivering a lesson on teacher's unions? I just wanted clarification.

-Rudey

Basically those statements are meaningless.

You don't know how many teacher spots are being filled by unqualified people and you don't know how that compares to other profession.

Truthfully, neither do I. I don't think anyone does.

-Rudey

No, and I never claimed to know. Particularly because we also don't really know how many education students are failing PRAXIS exams either. You aren't telling me that lawyers are being bar-certified without going to law school though.

It seems to me that you don't really think the intelligence of public school teachers is very important. Or is it that you don't think teachers deserve to be paid more?

As you can see by my NC statistics, there aren't any NC teachers being paid 75K to teach. I do think that's quite a bit of money for teachers. BUT the starting salary for a first-year teacher here is downright ridiculous. My own mother is a teacher, and so many of the young teachers at her school wait tables on the weekends and over the summer because they are not making enough money in their careers. To me, teachers are more important than that.

That's interesting. It must be a state or perhaps a county thing. In my home county (where my parents were teachers), it was illegal for teachers to strike at all, unless that's changed in the last couple of years.

Personally, I don't see the point in belonging to a union if you can't even strike. :)

I do feel that NC's situation is horrible. A friend, who had a BS was recruited to go to NC and teach HS physics or chemistry. I don't know why he even went to begin with- no relocation help, I believe around $24K a year salary, not sure if he even had benefits. He stayed for 2 weeks then quit. He loved his students but no one can live like that. He had no teaching experience or education. I believe that if you teach down there for so long you can get a certificate or something? Not sure. It was something like that, and he had planned to come back up here to teach.

You never claimed you knew but you are out there telling us how teacher spots are being filled by under trained people. That's great.

And I think the market will determine how much teachers are paid. They are getting more than they're worth right now because unions can interfere.

-Rudey

I said I didn't know the percentages. I know for a fact it's happening, because it's happening in my home school system and other school systems across the state. Whether it's 1% of the newly hired teachers or 10%, it is still occuring (according to NCTEACH, currently in 80 of NC's 100 counties). Not to mention the Teach4NC site states that they are actively recruiting these pseudo-teachers... I don't know how much more obvious it can be.

My entire POINT is that you may think that kddani's teachers are being overpaid, but her school system is not the norm. I would imagine that getting a teaching job in her system would be quite competitive... in most counties in North Carolina, schools are begging people to teach.

Again you don't know. 1% is meaningless. 1% is an outlier. Let me repeat, just in case you didn't catch the first line, you don't know.

And we can always look at the average as opposed to "teacher in NC are piss poor" and "teachers in PA are rich". And with that, the market determines how much they get paid unless a union steps in and their salaries are forced higher.

-Rudey

As to point #1: An effective teacher is learning new things about their subject, methodology, and their students every day.

#2 - Totally true. There are plenty of teachers that make more money than they should for sitting on their butts and telling students to read and do exercises from the book. But then again, they aren't really "teaching" so you can't call them teachers, they are chair warmers who get paid too much for having a title they don't deserve.

#3 There may be more barriers to being a lawyer, but as far as I am concerned(as are my friends who teach) you need to do very well in college and know your topic to be an effective and productive teacher. Just because I speak English fluently and it was my first language does not mean that I am equipped to teach it. Just because I took Calculus, Bio, Chem, etc...doesn't mean that I can teach it.

You know, I had some awful teachers in HS...as a matter of fact I knew more French than my French teacher. I became a teacher because it was something I was drawn to do, because I hope to inspire and serve my community, and to educate my students, not because the money was good. No one goes into teaching thinking, "Oh yeah, in 30 years I'll be making 75 K a year."

Saying that teachers are paid enough is fine...after they've been teaching 20 years or so. I hope to be making 75K in 20-30 years. I just find it disheartening that so many people seem to think that what I do doesn't deserve fair compensation for the amount of education that I have. Two Master's degrees and a BA, and I still make less that you will starting as a clerk..and this is my 4th year.

Re: Teacher's salaries
 

I think teachers DESERVE to make more money. Maybe if their salaries are increased, more qualified people will want to become teachers. I never even considered it because I wanted to make more than $35,000 starting out.

I too will be making less coming out of law school than the 1/3 who make $75,000, but good for them! THey are making that salary after years of experience... I am making nearly as much with little work experience and a LOT of school. I will surpass those teachers in two years. Lawyers have unlimited potential to make money. Teachers do not.

NJ Superior Court clerks make $35,000.

Which is why I chose a firm job and am not clerking.

I struggle to pay rent and utilities each month as a first year teacher. I get up early and stay up late. I lesson plan all the ever "free" moment I have. I have no social life. I know things will get better (time management wise). The first two years are supposed to be the hardest. I'll stick it out (long enough to get my Masters and my PhD) for a while, then teach at the university level where I can make a decent living.

I love the kids though. And they make the long nights and little pay worth it. SOMEONE has to do it.

http://cj.kavefish.net/albums/pjday/..._004.sized.jpg

Damn this thread blew up so quickly. This morning there were only like 15 posts. Kddani, you're such a little shit stirrer you!

You can not teach in NC for "so long" and become certified. You must go back to college and recieve you certification within 5 years... and they have a requirement on the number of classes you must take every year, not just one here and one there. You also must pass the Praxis 1 and the Praxis 2 in your area. I have a friend how graduated from Clemson with an education degree and decent grades. He could not pass the praxis 2 with the score that NC requires. They let him work for 2 years as long as he continued trying to pass. After his 2nd year and still no passing score, he was let go by the state. He could move somewhere that met his scores, but his wife and child are here. He is such a great teacher and role model for the students, he is a exceptional childrens assitant. He is making a little over half of a teachers salary now. The "No Child Left Behind" law is going to take care of that all together. Everyone is going to have to be a highly qualified teacher. Honestly, the fact that he did not have his certification was his first problem. Without taking the methods course, I doubt he could not have known what he was jumping head first into. NC offers pretty decent benefits...I have never really had a problem with mine. My starting salary, with graduate hours and 2 coaching jobs was about that much. I am not making much more than that now. I am trying to become Nationally certified. I chose to stay in NC for personal reasons. I am not from here and I had job offers in Va and other states. I seriously doubt most could live comfortably off of my salary. It is not easy for me either...I love to go out, wear my citizen jeans with my real LV bag, vacation, and drive a decent car. No, I do not have credit cards...it all comes out of that check, plus my side job. I pay for most of my workshops I attend, some equipement in my classroom, extra outside stuff I use at school, and supplies. It is not just teachers who are underpaid, school systems are underfuned. How happy would you be if your child had to sit out of half of my class because I didn't have enough hockey sticks for everyone or enough books for every child to have one and take home? That is a whole other ball game. I even buy the dertergent to wash my uniforms. I am not complaining, because this what I chose to do going into college, I researched it, and I love it. I do not really care for the lateral entry program, just like you might not care for a lawyer who's LSAT was not high enough to get into law school, but they did. I do support "NCLB", but it needs to be properly funded. I could have been the PE teacher who did nothing and did not care that all the kids were fat. You could also be the lawyer I paid $300 to get me out of my speeding ticket, and he didn't show up in court. Yes, you might be able to show up for work for me, take roll and do that type of stuff. No, I do not believe you could do my job. I might be able to sit in your office and respond to emails, but I could never show up in court and defend the family of a murder teenager. I know this reply is rambled, but there have been so many off the wrong path responense here...its hard to find the arguement.


In response to the reply about why doctors and lawyers have practices and why everyone else has a job...how many teachers have read Harry Wong's First Days of School book? Remember how he recommended you to frame your certification and degree and hang it up just like the doctors and lawyers? If you are doing your job correctly and the best of your ability, you are practicing what you know, just like them.