Sorry honey, but I'm not talking about the average Joe definition, cause we all know that the average American is not up to speed...

People who devote their lives to studying race in America have concluded that racism is more than just being prejudice or discriminatory, its a systematic application of these practices by a majority onto a minority. If you don't like that definition, you don't have to use it. But perhaps my definition of racism is a bit different than yours, seeing as I'm a minority who has experienced this behavior on a firsthand basis...

But what the hell do I know? I'm only a college grad...:rolleyes:

historical context has nothing to do with it

Herein lies the problem. To state that "historical context has nothing to do with it" is to COMPLETELY miss the point of why the act is offensive to minority groups to begin with. You simply cannot instruct people to disregard the context of their emotional connection to this issue. For members of a minority group with a history of oppressioin, it simply cannot be done.

And YOU may think the costume has "nothing to do with" the historical context, but the deep-rooted emotional reaction to the costume has EVERYTHING to do with history.

These are the same people devoted to making African-Americans into perpetual "Victims".

People who think of themselves as Victims are likely to be failures, seeking power to make the government give them special favors, such as welfare, welfare housing, welfare scholarships, and just plain money.

And these people, and their allies, seek to empower Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton (and give speeches every Sun. in A-A churches), while condemning any Christians who vote for George W. bush.

Maybe I see things differently because, maybe because there isn't the same level of historical weight to racism up here...

The thing is I don't see racism as something that only happens to minorities... just because I have seen people suffer from racism in contexts other than a sociey power structure... for example if I was to believe that "blacks" are better basketball players strictly because of "race" then that would be a racist belief... the same would be true if my friend Mat held the same belief (he being "black") then he would also be holding to a racist belief. Both of us would be holding to a belief that a "race" is superior to another... which by definition is "racist" (or at least the way I've always been taught).

Why are people trying to educate the racists?

-Rudey

How?

You can't divorce something from its historical context. It's there whether or not you choose to acknowledge it.

Because education is the light that dispells the darkness of ignorance....

Do you see the light?

-Rudey

First, to say that it is impossible for a minority group to be racist towards a majority group is impossible is the biggest load of CRAP i've ever heard. I went to a school that was 97% Hispanic and EVERY day racist remarks were made towards me. I thought I was too good for them because my dad had a nice car. I better not look at them that way because I'd get my gringo ass kicked. I was a stupid cracker and racist because I didn't cry when Selina died. WHATEVER.
I agree that this incident alone may not have been racism. THe point is that it's not any different what he did and what the white guys did. And YES A MINORITY CAN BE RACIST TOWARDS A NON MINORITY.

What does this have to do with anything? I personally don't think that African-Americans are perpetually victims. I think that there are people who hold power in this country who would like to keep in the catagory of "second class citizen". But then again, what do I know?

If you say so honey....But my EXPERIENCE AS BEING TREATED AS A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN IN A COUNTRY THAT MY ANCESTORS HELP BUILD AGAINST THEIR WILL SAYS THAT YOU'RE WRONG.

But whatever helps you sleep at night....

OH PLEASE!! If telling yourself that helps you sleep at night, rock on HONEY. :rolleyes:

So what about those SO-CALLED Christians who vote for george bush, and continuously perpetuate racial superiority to their children, maintain segregated schools and communities and live lives in complete disregard to the circumstances going on in areas of the country torn apart by poverty, lack of economic infrastructure, etc. etc. etc., all while maintaining the idea that somehow all of these problems happened out of nowhere? Do these people not exist in your head? I seriously want to know where YOU think those people have gone and if you even recognize that they exist and have power in this country?

Do you actually sit there and try to deny the REALITY staring you in the face that the overwhelming majority of wealth in this country is concentrated among white people, the overwhelming majority of major business and corporation ceo's are dispersed among white men, that the overwhelming majority or government officials in this country are white men? Where does the power structure in this country lie in YOUR mind? Why would any of the wealth and power in America just be conveyed to a minority group who never had it to begin with? That would simply go against man's natural tendencies. So, if that is the case, why is it SO hard for you to understand that when people seek retribution in the form of infrastructure (better communities, business incentives, etc.) education(better schools, higher paid teachers, etc.) and other services (finally giving the loan approvals and interest rates denied to the parents and ancestors of those living in poor housing today when other groups were offered them) from a government who PUT them in that position to begin with?

This is the problem with you, hoosier, and those who think like you. You are so blinded by your animosity toward Black people, that you cannot even think logically about why we feel the way that we do and seek the things that we seek. That ignorance leads to you make broad accusatory statements like the ones above that are based on nothing more than your inherent sence of racial hostility. Every post you make dealing with race smacks of anger obviously because you are not a part of the group that is to benefit from the badly needed reforms of the social structure in this country. If the tables were turned, you would be an advocate of the same things.But since the tables are not turned, and you cannot identity with me or anyone else in this particular group, you really should refrain from making your judgments. I have my conflicts with some things that those men you mentioned say but in general, I will always respect BOTH of them because they have seen and experienced things in their lifetimes that I didn't have to and because of their strength, boldness and resolve I am protected to a great deal from the evils of what it has been shown that this country CAN/could have do/done to me. So, if you don't understant that, that is YOUR problem and you need to work on that.

How do you explain apartheid South Africa?

Let's gooooooooo 99,999!

Know what I really enjoyed? When the black kids got to move into the dorms two days earlier than the rest of the students. hmmmmmm, thats fair.

LET IT GO! It didn't even happen to you.

the quan.
 

"i love black people!"

Based on your name, I'll actually explain this one:

Majority and minority have NOTHING to do with numbers! It has to do with who holds the power in the society...

Would you like to try your answer again?

I'll agree with that. The District of Columbia is a prime example.

You're right I wasn't a slave...

But you know what happened to me?
Let's see:
*I've been followed around in stores, and I've never stole a day in my life.

*I've been told that I was a engineering major at my alma mater because of affirmative action. (NO, I'm just smarter than you!).

*I've had people act like I'm going to steal their purse.

*My friends and I are targeted by the police all the time.

So what did I do to deserve this? Nothing except be African American. I've never broken the law, I pay my taxes, and I pay my bills.

Maybe you should educate the people who think I'm a criminal just because of my color, since slavery didn't happen to me.

You'll never understand...maybe if you'll lucky you'll get the opportunity to see what minorities go through, and you'll be a bit more empathetic...or maybe you just like to toss and turn at night...

ADPiZXalum, you rock my world. You say everything I want to say. Keep it up, please. :)

And I agree completely that a minority group can be racist. Racism has nothing to do with majority or minority or who is in power - it's a way of thinking that anyone can hold, I believe.

And maybe if you are lucky one day you'll quit blaming everyone else for things they have no control over, like a horrible thing that happened A LONG FREAKING TIME AGO.

Thank you dahling..........:D

For those who believe that minority groups can't be racist, think about this: A lot of Asian people in Asia are racist towards black people. Does that mean that they are no longer "racist" once they immigrate here, even if they carry the same values they did in the old country?

Honey, people following me around in stores didn't happen a long time ago.

People telling me that I'm a stupid Black girl didn't happen a long time ago.

I don't blame anyone today for slavery, I blame people for how they act today.

Try again.

You said the magic word: Asians in ASIA. I would think in their own country they would hold the power.

Oh I'm sorry what were you saying? I have no doubt that people have done that to you. FINE..........My point is don't freaking think that just because I'm white racism hasn't happened to me. Just because you're black doesn't mean you are the only one it has happened to. If people calling you a stupid black girl is racist, how is people calling me a stupid white girl NOT racist? Because there are more white people in power in the US? GIVE ME A BREAK! THAT IS THE DUMBEST THING I"VE EVER HEARD.

Don't get out much, do we?

For anyone who has not seen the documentry "The Color of Fear" I highly suggest you watch it. Then come back and take another stab at this discussion. The movie is a look into a group of men coming from many backgrounds looking at the role of race, what racism is and how we see the world. It is an eye-opening experience and probably best done with some who will discuss it with you after. The discussion, however, is so open and frank (after it gets going) that it will really open your eyes.

The video is probably available in your library or from a professor.

My thoughts:

a white person wearing blackface might be worse than a black person wearing whiteface, due to the historical implications, but they are both still wrong!

i still think it is wrong for a black person to wear whiteface -- *ESPECIALLY* if they would be so bothered by the reverse situation. if you KNOW you would be bothered by someone doing it to you, why would you do it to someone else? it's just common sense!

Why the anger?

As a white person, I can tell you that I have never experienced anything close to racism. Even if a black person called me a stupid white girl -- it would make no difference. There is nothing a black person can say or do to me to change the fact that, as a white person, I'm in a powerful position in this country.

If you think that racism isn't rampant in our society, you're incorrect. Believe me, I saw it first hand EVERY SINGLE DAY while working as a public defender in a conservative, predominantly white county. People doing nothing wrong get pulled over while driving because they're black. People standing outside their own apartments smoking cigarettes and minding their own business get harassed by the police because they're black. Innocent kids get followed around in stores by security guards and accused of things they didn't do because they're black. I'd be willing to bet a big wad of cash and my entire handbag collection that none of those things will EVER happen to you or me.

Yes, what happened in the past is the past, but nobody just gets over it. If you're in an abusive relationship for years and one day get out, you're not just over it -- what you've experienced shapes who you are and who you become. If your mom was in an abusive relationship for years, chances are that becomes part of how you are raised and how your view of the world is shaped.

What I want to know is how do we make it better?

First of all, I heart valkyrie.

I want to add that events or series of events don't even have to happen in YOUR life's past for it to be relevant. I think the collective history of a people is just as important. I will never understand the holocaust, but I will always be sympathetic to it and the fact that there are issues to this very day that American Jews have to deal with as a result of the legacy of the holocaust.

The legacy of slavery also has left deep wounds on African Americans.....too numerous to list here.

I really thought this thread would end after the first post. :confused:

I'm not arguing that racism is not a problem. Of course it is. I'm not arguing the fact that she probably has run into many incidents of it herself. I'm arguing that it is a two sided street whether the African American population wants to believe it or not. Of course they are not going to see it the same way as I do. And no I won't see it the same way as they do. Living in a town that was 97% Hispanic, I guarantee you that people were racist towards me. That was a horrible experience for me. The anger comes from someone saying that because I'm not black and because "my ancestors didn't help build this country against their will" I couldn't possibly understand or have experienced racism. It is a problem that runs rampant through this country. NO doubt..........but it's not just whites against blacks. It is true that I've never been followed in a store or pulled over bc of my race or looked at like I was going to steal something. TRUE...........BUT I have experienced someone being racist towards me. I did go home crying at least 3 times a week for 4 years until finally I was transfered to another school. That's my point. If I knew the solution, I'd be the first to offer a solution. I'm sure I sound like a racist biggot myself but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I really think I'm through discussing this issue, it's making me sick to my stomach.
Thank you for your input Valkyrie. I'm sorry that I've come across as angry, but I hope my point is understood as much as hers is.

Oh, but you're not....everybody says that but so few actually follow through. :)

You didn't read my entire post.

The face-painting subject was beaten to death in another thread, which now I can't find. The point is, in light of the historical negativity of blackface, any type of facepainting - whether blackface, whiteface, fuschiaface, or whatever - is offensive and unnecessary for costumes. If you're dressing up as the Supremes, you don't need to paint your skin - the big wigs, sequined gowns, and singing "Stop in the Name of Love" will enable others to figure out the costume. The guy at UVA could have done his preppy/WASP costume nicely with just the upturned polo collar and the other accoutrements (in fact, it might have been more ironic without the white paint). As one poster in the previous thread pointed out, her Halloween costume with the tall blue wig, green dress, and giant pearls was enough - she didn't have to paint herself yellow to be recognized as Marge Simpson. Leave off the paint so we can concentrate the race dialogue on more productive topics.