Certainly not.

I was more commenting on the fact that I would think a very young child at recruitment events would be more of a nuisance than anything!

Like I said, if it works for the chapter, more power to them.

Both of these girls made these career choices after being initiated... although I will say that the girl who ended up as Miss Oct. 98 was "known" when she went through rush.

And this is why I'm so proud to be your sister. :D

No, I suppose they don't know.


Actually, so would I. But I guess I was thinking that something in the middle might be nice.

But that's exactly my point. You know what it really means and it's not a very nice thing to say. You're admitting it's negative by sugar-coating it.
Didn't I say the same thing? I admitted that I could only bet too. I'm not arguing with you here.
I'm not ignoring that it's campus culture. What I'm doing is not buying it as an excuse.

I don't think you have to go to such extremes...the hooker with the heart of gold versus a sister who is a christian backstabber! Most girls who choose not to follow the rules of the chapter are not good sisters. When you join a sorority you change a lot of things. Following the ideals of the group is the biggest change, so I don't think following little rules like acting like a lady in public to protect the integrity of your chapter is asking too much. Anyway, breaking the little rules wouldn't get you kicked out but would get you reprimanded gently. Furthermore, you can't tell rushees everything before they pledge...there is simply not time. That is one reason for the new member period...they learn whether or not the ideals of the sorority fit their own before making the situation permanent. By going through initiation you agree to follow the rules set forth by the group. Wow that was long winded!

But very well put! :)

I don't sugarcoat it, that's just the phrase I've heard used most often


It's only an excuse if you think it's something that's wrong.
I don't acknowledge that the phrase is wrong, so I'm not excusing anything.
It's a colloquialism, not a literal damning of independants (like anyone here has the power to damn someone). And getting huffy when people use it, often because it was used on their campus in a completely positive way, is little more than elitism. Fine, don't use it, but don't look down at people who do. Stop getting offended on other people's behalf.

Stupid GDGs

It's called an example....for argument's sake only. No actual strippers or christians were harmed in the making of 33's point.

I don't find smoking in public or drinking on the dance floor (what?) to be "unladylike." I don't understand how following archaic rules of what is permissible for female behavior deepens your commitment to your sorority or strengthens relationships between women.

It makes me sad that you actually think "changing a lot of things" to be a part of a sorority is acceptable! Furthermore, I'm sure that at a lot of your chapters the things that you mentioned are in no way "ideals of the sorority." Those are things like leadership and integrity, not etiquette that varies widely from school to school (thank God).

I'd like to think that people take their vows to remain sisters as seriously as their vows to behave themselves. For instance, if a girl is repeatedly getting drunk at frat houses and doing things she shouldn't, is it ok to just kick her out, no questions asked? In my opinion, no. It's everyone else's duty as sisters to attempt to help her; volunteer to go with her to AA meetings, volunteer to be a go between with parents if they are difficult, volunteer to keep an eye on her at parties, that sort of thing. If she is given a second chance and refuses ALL help from EVERYONE who offers it, then I think her membership should be called into question. I take sisterhood very seriously...on the other hand I'm also aware that as college students we all have very limited resources when attempting to help others.

As for a member that is pregnant, I think that asking her to take alum (not inactive) status is reasonable. I don't see how she could possibly raise a child (especially as a single parent) AND fulfill all sorority obligations...and I don't think those that put themselves into a situation should be given slack in the obligations...let's be honest...an alcoholic had the choice, a pregnant girl had the choice, a girl hooked on drugs had the choice...a sister with cancer did not. BUT I do think as a sister she should be given all support that she needs and should not be shunned. Everyone makes stupid decisions and one thing I've struggled with is knowing that the people that condemn someone for, say, drinking underage and getting arrested did it themselves last night, or for "sleeping around" hooked up with a random guy at a party last weekend. Fortunately for them, they did not get caught or get pregnant. You can't really erase either of those things...college students make mistakes and some unlucky ones will pay...some never will.

I feel like that to an extent...here it's a hard line to walk. Everyone who is greek and is active (been at intramurals, Greek Week, etc.) would know I'm an Alpha Gam even if they have no idea what my name is. So if I act like a cheap whore at the bar then they will talk about "that Alpha Gam". At the least, though, for the sake of sisters who DO find it offensive, it's not a big deal to leave the letters at the door as we say. If I know I'm going to hang out with a bunch of Delta Chis and there will be alcohol a plenty it's no skin off my nose to wear something with AGD on it.

On the other hand we're college students and there's no chapter on campus that has NO drinkers, NO underage drinkers, NO girls who hook up a lot, and probably there's someone in every chapter hiding an affection for drugs (haven't met them yet, but I'm not believing NO ONE does it)...saying that based on our campus. It's pretty liberal. Drinking and dancing isn't a big deal to me...nor do I think it would be to a sister on this campus...in any sorority. Drinking on the dance floor while sandwhiched between two guys with a cigarette in the other hand...

Common decency. Would your mom be pissed if you were drinking and dancing? Probably not, or she'd get over it at least. Would she be upset about you looking veeeeeeeerrrrrryyyyy wasted? I'm bettin' yes.

Yes, you are sugar-coating it. You admit that you know exactly what it really means right here:

People (and you as well apparently) choose to say "Gosh Darned" instead. In other words, they sugar-coat it.

This just completely defies logic. So you wouldn't be offended if I called you just one of those God Damned Sigma Kappas? That's nuts! That would be a horrible thing to say.

Please don't even start defending colloquialisms. That's one seriously slippery slope.
I'm not buying this for one second. If you're really saying that GDI is a positive thing to say about someone on your campus, then I guess I have to believe you but it was very negative on my campus and on every other campus I've been on.

Oh, and fine, so I'm an elitist. So be it.

Yes, I will look down on people who use it. Just as I look down on people who use other terms like "JAPS", "n*****s", or any other rude, offensive, condescending words.

How is dancing with a drink in your hand disrespecting your sorority? If anything it would be less of a risk management issue because if your drink is always in your hand, no one can slip anything in it.

I was trying to avoid commenting on the GDI fray, but since its not dying...

Non-Greeks on my campus used the term GDI with pride. Greeks didn't generally use the saying much - it was the non-greeks who perpetuated its usage.

I'm fairly active in an alumni group from my university, and I still hear people - some of whom graduated 10, even 20 years ago - refer to themselves as GDI when the subject of Greek life comes up.

(And I've heard a roughly even split used between gosh darned and the other gd'ed.)

Maybe its a regional thing - are you from the South or some other area where Greek life is big? GDI might be taken offensively there, but at my large Midwestern university being "GDI" was like a badge of honor for those who chose not to be Greek. (On my campus, it would have been extremely rare for a person to not be able to get into a Greek organization. Yes, they may not have been able to get into one of their "top" organizations. But if a person had an open mind and wanted to be Greek, they would have had to have some sort of bizarre, serious complication not to be able to get into any house.)

I knew you were going to go there and I still can't believe you did.

In what way is "GDI" like the word "nigger" or "Jap" or any other sort of racial slur. Don't sugar coat it by putting asterixs you know what word you meant. That is ridiculous and unbelievably offensive.

You've failed to understand a singled thing I've said. No shit sherlock, I know what GDI stands for, I also know that I've seen more people say "Gosh Darned" than God Damned and that is the firt phrase that pops into my head. But apparently I'm either intellectually dishonest or living in Mayberry. Right.

I am a God Damned Sigma Kappa. Proud of it. Will be for life. You don't seem to grasp the use of "God Damned" as a pride thing. Never seen someone call themselves a God Damned American? Please look up idiom in the dictionary.

Again, I'm sure the paddles on my mom's wall were made by oppressed independants who were held down by the evil Greeks.

Just what I already said. It's derogatory, condescending and rude. However, I never said it was equal to using those words. I said I would look down on someone who used those words.

Of course I knew what word I meant! I'm not "sugar coating" it. It's a word that I simply will NEVER say, write, type or think. Simple as that. Apparently you have lower standards.
Yes, I do understand it but it's one thing to use it to define yourself and an entirely different thing for someone to use it against you.
Same here. We'll never come close to agreeing on this so why not just let it go.

I somehow doubt that calling someone a GDI would the elicit the same reaction as calling a black person the n word.

Actually here it would be said with pride. On my campus it would be FAR from an insult. Usually it's ex-Greeks that use it as Greek life is so peripheral that the rest of the campus wouldn't even bother to use it.

And it is NEVER in the same category as "nigger". And I do think it helps to write it out...when you read that you remember why you would NEVER call someone that...it's sick. GDI is NOT in the same category and I think everyone who has been called by the aforementioned slur would be offended at putting GDI in that category.

This is a good example of how current etiquette can do more harm than good. In any etiquette book I've ever read, walking or dancing with food or a drink (or smoking on the street) is simply not done. Yet, I'd much rather see a sister dance with a drink rather than risk a medically-enhanced rape. I'd like to think that future etiquette books will address this in the appropriate way.

Of course, the drink still should be in a glass, not a can or bottle. ;)

Perhaps the newer editions will simply suggest that a woman finish her drink before going to the dance floor.

That could be dangerous too...I mean, how many times do you go to the dance floor in a night? Suzie Q. could be drunk by 9 and passed out by 11.

You manage to type "n****r" without thinking of the word that you mean? Bullshit.

My standards don't include comparing racial slurs to slang terms. I'm quite happy with them.

You don't seem to get that when independants call themselves GDIs, Greeks around them are likely to call them that and not mean anything derogatory by it. Because that's low class. To you. Bless your heart.

I understand what you've said, I just think you're an elitest who "knows best" for everyone else and thinks she has more class then everyone else. I disagree with what you've said, but I still understood it. You react with disbelief, attempted insults to me and my standards, and implications about my sorority, and gross exaggerations.

I'm sorry -- in my scenario the woman has enough class not to over-imbibe. I was just commenting on drinking while dancing.

Works for me! We were always told to only get half a glass anyway. That way, you can dump the cup when necessary.

Think we ought to put our heads together & write our own version? :D

oops...

I agree, Terp -- and it doesn't matter in which part of the country you reside -- good manners and class are universal.

I never said it was in the same category! Clearly you missed this part of my post:

Thank you, but I don't need to remind myself of why I don't use the word. (especially not by using the word)

Nice.:D

I meant "thinking" as in thinking of someone in those terms. For example, looking at an African American and thinking "n****"!

I said they were both condescending and derogatory. I also said that they were not equal to eachother. Did you not get that?
At my campus, the campus where I was on KD House Corp and the campuses I've visited as a KD alumna it was not that way. GDI was derogatory, it was used by the Greeks, and it was not used by the independents themselves.

I already admitted to being an elitist. I don't think I have more class than everyone else though.
Show me one place where I made any negative implications about your sorority! I would NEVER insult Sigma Kappa!

I don't equate common sense with class...especially not with the education on it I've gotten in college. I'm not a fan of the "well they're too classy for that" attitude. The "classy" people I have met...in high school too...were in general very pompous, uptight, and snobby. So I don't give a damn about classy...I'm more interested in people using common sense...AND having fun while doing it. One of the best women I have ever met drank beer out of a mason jar at parties back in her day, and sometimes too much. But she grew up and she's one of the most amazing people I know..."classy" people turn their noses up at her...THEIR loss!

PS-You severely over estimate the average college student.

Then don't compare it. There is no comparison. Like I said, people who have been called that probably do not appreciate your comparison.


Before you make blanket statements and ASSume you are right about everything please take into consideration that it's possible that you're not. As I said, here, GDI wouldn't be considered offensive at all...it's said with pride. And it's fine by me...being proud of being NOT Greek doesn't offend me at all.

Elitist..."classy"...gag me, please. You can't argue with those that are "always right".

Check with me in 25 years -- or, you actually might not get it even then.

;)

I don't have to...this type is the kind that shunned that woman. Fortunately, my parents brought me up better than that and I got to know her...I'll be forever grateful.

Those "classy" folks? They'll never know what they're missing because they'll never take a chance when it might look bad. I have noooooo time whatsoever for those that trumpet their class.

I would then venture a guess that you never visited Michigan State. (BTW - the KD house there is gorgeous!) Or Bowling Green State University either. I attended one and am an advisor at the other, and the terms are both freely embraced by the non-Greek populations.

(Though I'm a little uncertain how as a chapter visitor, you might interact sufficiently enough with large groups of non-Green students to determine that they don't use/embrace the term GDI. Most of the chapter visitors I have encountered primarily have contact with other Greeks. Of course, it may depend upon the context of your visit to that campus.)

I said they are derogatory and condescending. And I said that THEY ARE NOT EQUAL!!!!!!

I told Drolefille that if she says GDI is not derogatory at her school then I would have to believe her. So I was not making a blanket statement. It works both ways though. Don't think that just because GDI is okay at your school that it's okay everywhere else, because it's not.

I said I didn't think I was classier than everyone else.

Yes, please do! It's annoying getting drinks spilled on a new dress or cute outfit, even when it's by a sister. Not to mention slipping on spilled drinks or falling on broken glass. Also, NO smoking on the dance floor please! I've been burned twice...not cool.:mad:

I have to disagree with this. If a sister gets pregnant, she should be given a choice -- have the option to stay a collegian or opt for alumna status. 99.99999% of the time she'll choose alumna status, but simply ASKING her to go alum is unfair, IMO.

I wasn't at this Convention, but a sister once told me about the business meeting that included a very heated discussion about pregnant members. Naturally the traditionalists favored automatically changing her status to alum and the liberals favored giving her a choice. It was a very sensitive topic and lots of sisters were hurt regardless of the outcome.

Which is why I totally love the whole "NO DRINKS ON THE DANCE FLOOR!" rule many bars/clubs have out here.

Okay...back to your GDI discussion, sorry!

A) That's not what you said. You said you'd never use it. I take people at their word.
B) They don't belong in the same sentence. That's like saying "I'll fight against those who say GDI just like I'll fight against Hitler" By saying this, you equate the two. Don't put them together and no one will call you out for it.
C) I'm not arguing that point. I acknowledge some places it's used negatively. You jumped into the conversation trying to make some sort of point about how it's always bad to say. What was my response? "It's always ok" or "It depends on campus culture." Thankfully you're finally coming around to my way of seeing things.

D) You imply that using GDI in any way is lower class than you by your statements. Just because you don't say it doesn't mean you don't exude it from every word you type.

E) Oh, but implications about my standards are completely ok. :rolleyes: So you know, I would never use KD in an example of something I found offensive. I never brought your sorority into the discussion, but you had to bring mine up.
Also, you've made comments about the behavior of people on here reflecting on their GLOs. If you think MY standards are low, then you're implying, by your previous statement, that this reflects badly on SK and carries with it all sorts of other negatives.

As I said, you seem to finally be understanding that it has to do with campus culture, and perhaps you won't jump on the next poster to use it in a non-negative light or who suggests that it may not be the same everywhere.

WRONG! This is exactly what I said:

And then when you misunderstood what I meant by "think", I explained further.

Okay, fine.
Considering what the acronym actually stands for (and that in my experience independents were offended by it) I still think it's not a good thing to say no matter where you are. However, yes, I admit that I am now seeing things more your way. I suppose it does depend on campus culture.
I brought yours up in an example of something horrible that I would never say!
That's not insulting your sorority, it's defending it.

Please show me exactly where I have done this. I can't believe that I would have ever done that.

I honestly have no idea what you're saying here. Are you saying that if I insult you, then I'm insulting Sigma Kappa? If I'm wrong about that I'm sure you'll correct me but if that's what you're saying then you've done a whole lot of KD-bashing today. I don't think of it in those terms though. I'll take your criticisms as directed at me only and not KD.

Yes, I am beginning to understand that and I will promise not to do it again.


Please let me also apologize for making that rude comment to you about having lower standards. It was heat-of-the-moment anger talking. I'll admit that I'm usually taken aback when people openly use the N word, even when using it as an example of something bad to say. I actually don't believe you have low standards though and I'm sorry I said what I did.