I totally agree with you. For the man to be the spiritual leader, you both need to be on the same page! (...and that is a whole 'nother thread ;) )

If we have different religions or beliefs, we're most likely to go to different churches. I wouldn't mind switching churches if it were in my denomination, but I wouldn't switch to another one.

I'm not saying switching. I'm saying you go to early services at yours and late services at his.

I agree. I think I said this before, but it's the intensity that each person in the relationship feels for his/her own religion that matters, and then the matter of how much he/she can respect the feelings of the other person.

I'm pretty hardcore about being a born-again Christian, and as I look at the few men I've dated outside my religion, they have been almost exclusively Jewish. Each has understood my need to be who I am while worshipping, and since I feel that a BA Christian is somewhat of a "completed Jew", I'm quite at home at Shul. I just could NOT keep kosher - I tried, but can't.

But if you can have that relationship with ANY two religions, that's a good thing. Again, it's the agreement between the two people involved, and not cut and dried.

I don't know that I could because it would be a huge difference but I know it works for people. The thing that boggles me is the people in this thread who won't date anyone that's not their exact flavor of Christian.

Ah, but you didn't grow up with a much older brother becoming a pastor and having you memorized large passages of the Bible in both English & Hebrew! Trust me, it's a mixed blessing!

I also had a paternal grandmother who felt that anyone who wasn't a Lutheran or Christian Scientist was on a greased slide to Hell. We didn't hit it off very well!

Seriously, my church had a very large portion of people who were Messianic Jews - and I taught the part in Sunday School which compares/completes the two.

Nope, I don't think any one group of people is all "one way." ;)

Because I don't just go to service, and since I want someone active in ministry, they probably won't either. I teach a class on Wednesdays, I have a Sunday school class, I work with the youth... If I had not committed to serving in ministry, it would be as simple as, "Hey, we'll go to your service at 8 and mine at 9:30."

For me, my religion isn't just a Sunday morning thing. It's an every day, from when I wake up until I go to bed relationship, and I won't marry anyone for whom that isn't true as well.

It's ok that your mind is boggled. However, this is me personally. I would not say, "Excuse me, but I think you should leave your significant other because you are a different religion and it can't possibly work," to a couple that is making it work. It's their call, not mine, just as my choice to date/marry someone only within my denomination is my call. It makes things much easier in my realtionship and my service to do so, and I don't expect most people to understand.

I don't know if it's intentional, but your post reeks of a smugness that implies that if somebody goes to services of her own denomination as well as those of her significant other, religion is just a "Sunday morning thing" for her.

I thought the same thing. I guess I'll have to let my boyfriend the pastor's son know that the INTERWEB RELIGION GODDESS does not deem his participation appropriately and tell the priest who presides at the Mass where I assist that I don't care about religion.

And it's a Sunday evening thing for me!

A messianic Jew is a Christian. If they think they qualify as both, they are wrong and confused, much like a transvestite or 12 year old boy who can't decide if he might be gay.

While we do enjoy the effort made by Christian Evangelicals and Baptists to fund this "movement" to convert Jews, you are beyond mistaken if you think a Born Again Christian is a "Completed Jew".

-Rudey

No, but her boyfriend did have a father that was, you know, a pastor in a pretty strict denomination (typo: "demonization," LOL), so I imagine that it might be a little similar.


Honestly, being willing to date someone outside of your religion has NOTHING to do with the "intensity" you feel for your religion. GP is far more intense about her religion than anybody else I know. What it does have to do with is your tolerance for viewpoints other than your own. A Christian fundie would never date me, but I've dated Christians before, some of them who were pretty intense about their faith -- they just had a far different interpretation of it than any fundamentalist would.


For the record, considering that I belong to no particular domination of any church and there are maybe three people on earth who hold the same viewpoints as I do . . . I damn well better be willing to date outside of my faith.

LOL, I may be the most intense religious persons you know, but I'm one of the least in my circle of friends. Of course, where I go to school now has a lot to do with that.

All of the guys I've dated are now atheist or agnostic.

Not all of them were when I was dating them . . . haha. I think I was an influence . . .

I gotta say I think it's insulting to imply that non-"messianic Jews" are some how in complete...

The funding for these groups comes from Baptists, Pentecostals and independent bible churches. Jews for Jesus was started by a Baptist minister and is classified as a cult by many. http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000509.html

The Holocaust, Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, and the Russian Pogroms weren't enough to kill the Jews so American Christians have invented this new program called Jews for Jesus to carry out the Silent Holocaust. So now these groups have singled out the American Jewish population which accounts for lesst than 2% of the total.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

-Rudey

Hmmmm.... I've seen (and been approached) those nutbags around campus at the beginning of each year - figures that they are funded by yet another Baptist splinter/fringe group :rolleyes:

These are the people that give "Christians" a bad name - those that feel they must convert people to their particular belief system... a prime example of the "fundie" I'd never consider dating.

Where to start (remembering, of course, the phrase "Pearls before swine...", that many of you won't bother to really read this before you start your Whine-O-Meters)...

Growing up fulling indoctrinated and then making a decision off on my own is different than my Significant Other doing so. The correlation to that would be my understanding what a heart transplant feels like because my SO had one. I can't fully understand.

You say "tolerance", I say "intensity". To go a step further, if I believe with all my heart, soul, and being that (insert your favorite fundie myth here) is right, how could I willingly go to a church with and possibly marry, someone who doesn't believe in that? I guarantee that I'm more tolerant than you, as I would never stoop to search for chances to make nasty remarks about someone on the internet. Tolerating means accepting people for what they are, not snarking at their every move.

RACooper and Rudey, yes, I know quite a few people of Jewish ancestory who believe in Jesus Christ. I have not "witnessed" to any of them; I do not know the path which they took to Christianity, for the most part. I used the terms which they use. If that offends you, I can supply some names & addresses, and you can take it up with them. They'll be positively thrilled to hear you judge their religiosity!

MTSUGirl, I understand that church is not a Sunday morning (evening) experience with you, and your need to only date someone who shares that lifestyle. An example would be a future missionary who tries to date someone who can barely stay awake through the Sunday service - it's not going to work.

Back to tolerance: I've seen the phrases: "fundie", "nutbag", "fanatics", "bible thumpers", and probably more derogatory remarks about believing Christians in this thread, and this message board in general - yet there's only the one battle between two men which has abused any other religion. I don't see this as being the much vaunted "toleration" worshipped by so many.

Congratulate their weak minded selves on being Christians. They are not Jewish, you shouldn't perpetuate that myth, and they can now join the likes of those that believe evolution is a myth.

-Rudey
--If any of your "significant others" were of such ilk, do not claim they were Jewish either.

My point was that as involved as I am, and the fact that I am looking for someone that is also very involved, it would not be desirable or feasible to go to different churches.
Any perceived smugness was not intentional. I apologize for seeming otherwise. I have tried to explain my reasoning, without any of the implications that have been found in my posts. I was not trying to be judgemental, and am sorry if that is how it has come across.

GP - You said your mind was boggled, I tried to explain. I am sorry if I have offended you - it was not my purpose. There have been many posts that have been directed at Christians that have been offensive, but I've never resulted to name calling or getting defensive (until now - even I consider this post somewhat defensive).

Don't worry about my significant others. The Jewish men I dated were/are (to my knowledge) Jewish in every way.

I do have a question, though: Is it true that, if a Jewish woman has a child, that child is considered Jewish, while a Jewish man can father a child to a non-Jewish woman and that child isn't considered Jewish? My cousins' father was Jewish, and their mother was told that she needed to convert to raise the children Jewish. I'm fairly certain that they were Conservative.

In the Conservative and Orthodox movements, that is true. The child is considered to be of the same religion as the mother.

In Reform Judaism, that is not true. If the father is Jewish and the mother is not, and the child is raised in the Jewish faith, the child is considered to be Jewish.

Thank you for the kind answer. My mother remembers her aunt going through a ceremony, with a special bath and getting her hair cut (? She's not sure about that - she was about 4!), so that she could convert.

The conversion process involves several steps. I'll share some of my conversion story.

First and foremost, you must study, and work with a rabbi for a period of time, generally at least a year. I studied with a rabbi for a total of about 18 months, including a formal Intro to Judaism course and some private study.

You must go before a bet din, which is a rabbinic court consisting of 3 rabbis. The rabbi with whom I studied was on the court. They question you, mainly on why you want to become Jewish. In the Reform movement, once the bet din gives the green light, you are officially Jewish.

You should go to the mikveh, which is a ritual bath. If you are converting into the Orthodox or Conservative movement, this is required; if you are converting into the Reform movement, it's optional. You go into a pool of warm water, naked, and immerse yourself completely, and say a blessing. For an Orthodox or Conservative conversion, this is the point where you officially are Jewish.

And lastly, your synagogue may have a conversion ceremony as a formal welcome to the Jewish community.

There is no requirement that you have your hair cut.

Side note: Going to the mikveh, in February, in Boston, is an excellent way to catch a cold. :(

Thank you - and sorry about the cold!!

A child is Jewish through birth only if the mother is. For that to be different, you have to create a new definition which you can always do in religion and certain Jewish sects have done so but the converts may not accepted as Jews by others and I'm pretty sure Israel doesn't recognize this process either (unless things have changed).

-Rudey

I AM Christian. I have been Roman Catholic my entire life. If you're one of THOSE people who doesn't think Catholics are Christians, then I really have nothing to say to you.

If you aren't, I don't understand how anyone can be so sure that their version of faith is correct. I think that more Christian people would be a lot more tolerant if they were willing to explore other denominations. I know my boyfriend and I have both grown in our faith by attending services with each other, and neither of us were Sunday morning people - he wanted to go to seminary before he decided on law school and I go to what is arguably the most Catholic law school in the nation.

I was raised non-denominational christian but I have attended service at Luthern, Batist, Prysbeterian and Catholic churches. I do not attend church now at all. I really don't care what others(non friends/family) think of my lifestyle and the choices I have made in my life. The people I have known in the churches I went to have problably been the most judgemental and hypocritical that I've come across in my life. I really think that organized religion is for the

That's easy.....they aren't. Our religions are called our "faiths" for a reason....If we were sure, it'd be called our "fact" or our "knowledge" or something to that extent. ;)

MTSUGURL--I didn't see any smugness in your post, I think you were just trying to explain yourself. But I can see how it could be taken that way--everyone reads posts with different emotion--so don't feel too bad about it.

GP--I hope (if you were referring to me a bit) that you know I don't judge your choice of partner just b/c of what I would do. Personally, I stand by what I said b/c it's true FOR ME. Now as for you, I believe that my rationale can be applied to all relationships simply because it makes a fair bit of sense, but even so I'm not about to tell you to break up with whomever you're with if you two are happy together. Not only do I not know you two or how you get along in ANY aspect of your relationship, but it's none of my business. If you break up, I won't be the one you cry to about it and if it works out, I won't be invited to the wedding, so who cares what I think? You do what what makes you feel happy, what makes you feel fulfilled, and what strengthens the faith that you have. That's really all anybody can do when it all comes down to it, so if your relationship is working out then I say congrats, you've found something really special:).

"God doesn't care where you go, just as long as you show up"
-Truvy to Anelle in the scene where Anelle is flipping out about running late and about not wanting to go to Truvy's church as opposed to her own for one service. Courtesy of "Steel Magnolias" and my insomnia.

Keep in mind it was the Ecumenical split of 1063 or 1065(?) over which calendar was to be followed among other things that had Catholic Christianity spread west and Orthodox Christianity spread east. My point being to whoever said something about Catholicism not counting. That is not true. If someone wants to do a timeline feel free to enter which branch of Christianity goes where.

Isn't in Galatians 3:28 that reminds us that we all equal?

eta: I can't remember the verse.

Good point. If I recall the question was "would you marry someone outside of your religion" not "which religion is right or wrong".

I for one don't understand the need to get upset or defensive because someone chooses to marry someone within their own denomination. That doesn't mean that they are intolerant or that people of other denoms are wrong - its just their preference for personal reasons (which MTSUGIRL was kind enough to state why).

This is why when it comes to faith (and decisions based on it) it is a personal choice. Some people explore everything from here to China, others are comfortable with what they have grown up with (and they are plenty of more scenarios). Either way, its a personal choice not an intolerant act of smugness.

Not to be a nit or anything, but I think this is wrong - it literally makes them intolerant:

in·tol·er·ant __ (_P_)__Pronunciation Key__(n-tlr-nt)
adj.

Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.
--

The real issue is that you're applying negative connotation to intolerance - obviously you have your reasons for being intolerant, and until you extend it to areas other than dating etc, I don't see anything wrong with being intolerant.

I do, however, hate semantic stuff like saying "I'm not intolerant, I just won't tolerate any beliefs other than my own in a potential partner" - let's call it like it is, and we'll all be better off for it.

You're referring to the Great Schism of 1054.

I'm Greek Orthodox, and I married a Roman Catholic. There have been many peaks and valleys throughout our marriage, but I can honestly say that none of the valleys were because of our different denominations. We love each other; we respect each other; and we trust in God that our marriage will continue to unfold as He meant it to--whatever that may be.

GP,

The reason why I asked you this is b/c this thread asks people's opinions regarding dating outside of their religion. I have seen responses for and against this, but I haven't seen anyone really knocking anyone else's post or position. I wasn't sure if you were interpreting any of the posts differently, so I just asked you if that was the case or if you were just venting regarding something in your personal life. From the outside looking in, it appeared as if your post was in response to Christiangirl's post.

Marie

I think there was a little knocking on here, there is a lot of knocking in real life.

I also think a lot of what has been said on here is pretty silly, but whatever works for people in their own lives...

Hmmm, see I interpret this a little differently than you do. I don't think that choosing not to marry someone of a different religion is the same as not tolerating other religions all together. I think that there is a difference btwn tolerating another religion and 'celebrating' it, which (for me) is the best description of practcing my religion. For instance:

1. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
- I am more than willing to learn about and discuss other religions. Furthermore, I encourage others to practice any and every religion that they feel is right for them. I don't think that anyone here is suggesting that any other religion is wrong for anyone who believes in it, or that any other religion should cease and desist so that their can become the prominent religion du jour.

2. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
- I have participated in several religious ceremonies with friends that are other religions than my own. I encourage anyone who is willing to attend my church, and I would be more than willing to attend their's in turn. Again no one here has said that they are not willing to acknowledge or learn more about other religions. It's just that for some religion in marriage is about more than merely attending the ceremonies.

3. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.
- I am quite supportive of those around me who are of other religions. If I'm spending the day w/a friend who is Muslim and they need to take time out to pray, then I encourage them to do so, and I'll help them to find a quite place to make it happen. Again, I've participated in religious ceremonies of other religions, and I've had in-depth discussions (not hostile, just informative) w/friends of other religions, so I'm not seeing where there is a lack of support or endurance.

I don't think that this stance/position speaks to intolerance of other religions. Perhaps, folks are intolerant of that living arrangement or marriage situation, but not of the religions themselves.

It seems that there is just 1 basic fundamental difference of opinion here. For some people practicing religion together (as one) is a part of marriage. For others it is not. I'm not sure why this seems to be so offensive to some. I don't think anyone is saying that it cannot be done. However, for some their expectation/belief/preference is that the husband is the spiritual leader of the household. His beliefs directly coorelate to how he runs the household. A Christian man should be taking his cues on fidelity, child-rearing, finances, the role of a good husband, the role of a good wife and many other issues from the Bible. Now if this is your expectation/belief/preference, then it only make sense that you would find a partner whose beliefs and guides are the same as yours. Otherwise your definition of the role of a good wife (etc.) and his definition may differ causing conflict. If this isn't your believe then great, marry who you will. However if it is, then its only logical that you want someone who is on the same page with you. Again no one is debating how anyone else's marriage works. Folks are just answering the original question, which is "What would YOU do?"

Marie

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
 

Ditto to what Marie said!

You missed my point entirely - I was simply saying that these folks are, indeed, being intolerant of other religions IN THEIR POTENTIAL SPOUSES. I did not extend this to a higher level, or anything like that - in fact, I express that in the caveat at the end. r->c->p

My goal was to make a larger point here: the term 'intolerant' has become almost jargon at this point, and the defensiveness over it is sickening. You can be open to other religions all you want, but the reality is that you are perfectly intolerant of other religions in a potential spouse. Now, everyone has eloquently explained rationale behind this, and that's fine - I can respect that, because there's nothing wrong with making that kind of choice for yourself (as long as it doesn't extend past that - like I said before).

But let's not pretend like it's not being intolerant - because in that limited sense, it is implicitly intolerant. It does not limit you from being tolerant or open in other fashions or scenarios - and your post spent about 1000 too many words making that point, although I specifically excluded it before.

Let's remove the defensiveness and negative connotation, and simply look at it in isolation.

IMHO, Marie has said it best for all of us - or at least, for me and the others answering the spirit of the original question!

Dude, you just called Born-Again Christians "completed Jews" . . . just wanted to bring that back for you, because it's ridiculous