Wait, did I say "kissing prior to marriage is per se forbidden in Bible because it is listful activity" or did I say "you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage." There's a big difference. I said exactly what I meant. If you cannot separate the lust from the act, then don't do it. And, if kissing is lustful for you then it IS a sin. I repeat:

Matthew 5:27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Let us not split hairs and live by the letter of the law. Lust, fornication and adultery are all tied up together and they are all serious issues we have in today's culture.

ETA: Song of Solomon is for MARRIED COUPLES. It equates marriage between humans to marriage between humans and God.

Chill, please. In your first post on the subject, you said: "Actually, according to the Holy Bible, you really aren't supposed to engage in any lustful activities before marriage, including kissing." In your second post on the subject, you said: "So, if you cannot separate kissing from sexual lust, then it is forbidden." As I said in my post, these seem like two different statements to me. While you very well may have meant them to mean the same thing, I think the first statement can fairly be read to say that kissing before marriage is per se lustful activity, which I don't think can be found anywhere in the Bible. That was my only point (and is why I asked for a citation to the first statement).

And I really don't think I am splitting hairs to suggest that the words fornication and adultery have specific definitions.

Okay, aside from the fact that the Song of Solomon reference was meant as a light-hearted aside, the interpretation that it is for married couples or that it is about the relationship between God and humanity are certainly reasonable interpretations, but they are not the only widely-accepted interpretations. Jewish and Christian scholars of all stripes -- conservative, liberal, whatever -- agree that the Song is not necessarily about a married couple. No where in the text is any mention of marriage made, and of course when it was written, a man of prestige would not only have had a number of wives but also a lot of concubines -- hundreds in Solomon's case.

FWIW, I'm pretty much with you on the idea that some behavior is only appropriate within marriage, but I don't think anyone could pick that kind of idea up from Song of Solomon. The Song of Solomon is about love and desire, and how they are to be celebrated as part of the good creation. For guidance on the appropriate bounds of such celebration, one must look elsewhere.

Thus endeth my sermon for today. ;)

Are you saying these practices are encouraged or sanctioned by the Bible? :confused:

Could you find a citation of this anywhere for me? I've been searching and searching the web and can't find anything..and it would sort of surprise me if it were true, because there is such a strong emphasis on education (even continuing after marriage if getting married young happens). I'll be getting married next month and will be finishing my undergrad in the next year or so..and I know I get a lot of encouragement from the church to complete my degree (not that it was ever an option for me not to!). So yeah, i'd just be really greatful to find these sort of stats for BYU. Thanks!

really it's just something I've heard in passing... was definitely not stating that I believe it to be fact... sorry if it appeared that way...have edited my post to reflect as such...

So, exactly what does the church consider too young for a serious relationship? I always heard about how education was a major part of the LDS doctrine--hence their support of a major research university. On the other hand, I hear about Mormon women marrying before they're 21--which seems too young to me. Is there a magic age at which church elders are encouraging marriage? I know that's how it is with the JWs. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, I just want to understand more.

The dropout rate for married women is and has been higher for that of unmarried women--regardless of school type or religion. Priorities change. I was going through my college's alumnae newsletter (back when half of it was women-only), and even in 1950, there were articles urging women to finish their studies and travel or work at least a year before getting married.

As far as I know these are some church ideals: dating is encouraged to begin not before age 16, group dates are always a better idea that one-on-one, serious dating and marriage encouraged after return from one's mission. A lot is left to individual parents/families to determine, with these things as guidelines. I know my fiance had a serious relationship with a girlfriend his first year at college, before his mission...with his parent's blessing. He and she both changed so much on their mission that they didn't mesh well upon return..and left the relationship as a friendship.

So my LDS friend (the one who invited me to go tour the temple in Manhattan with her earlier this month) invited me to a service at the church.

Now, we've had dinner a few times, once casually with 2 missionaries. After that dinner they presented a devotional where I very openly presented the fact that I'm a born and raised Baptist and very happy attending the Presby. church I've found here in the city.

I didn't end up going to her service on Sunday. I felt like going would be like leading her on. The more and more I hang with her I feel guilty. One because I have no need to go to her church, being very happy with mine and two because I think the more polite I seem the more interested she thinks I am. Does that make sense?

Also, and maybe someone will know how I felt, I feel more so with her that there's a heavy pressure to convert. More so than with any other religion. I've been to a Catholic Mass for Easter Vigil. At that service the family I was with and the priest knew I was Baptist and I never felt pressured. Even conversations with her about teaching I feel, like she's there in her head trying to figure out how to 'make me a mormon' I mean no disrespect, just....well it feels uncomfortable!

Can she and I be friends without religion being involved? We had such an awesome time out at a Broadway show Friday!!

I've been there as well, in my case in high school. I was heavily pressured by my LDS boyfriend and the local missionaries (who apparently talked to my boyfriend's parents and decided to work on me). I realize that my boyfriend and his family were genuinely interested in showing the beauty of their faith (and I don't hold anything against them)... but it made me extremely uncomfortable... and because I was underage at the time, I really didn't know how to back out of it. I tried to explain that I didn't feel the pull they claimed I would toward the faith after reading the Book of Mormon. It didn't matter. Thankfully it ended when the missionaries called my father to ask if there was a time they could meet with him. My dad stopped it right there. Unfortunately, so did my relationship with my boyfriend.

In many ways, the LDS church members are encouraged to convert others-- because it's taught that their faith is the one with the truth. Many other Christian sects, mostly charismatic or evangical, do this as well. It can get extremely heavy, and is difficult to request that they back off without making it ugly since they genuinely do think they're doing something out of kindness for you by trying to bring you into their church. It can put you into that difficult place of telling them no without sounding completely disrespectful.

I would recommend that if you want to continue a friendship with her, to explain how you're feeling the pressure and (to make it completely unaccusatory) are concerned that you might have been giving off an incorrect vibe that you were interested in converting, when in reality you have found a foundation in your own faith that already fills your heart. :)

It does look like there are some GLO's at BYU, by the way... they look like they are all professionals or honoraries that are major-specific.

http://sc.byu.edu/index.cfm?ThisSect...&OrgListPage=1

ZTAMich, I think Measi said it all beautifully.

I hope that if you explain to your friend that you appreciate what she's trying to do for you, but you're just not interested in religion being part of your friendship, she'll understand. If not... well, you may have lost a friend.

I think it's a shame when people can't see past religion in friendships. I had a friend (roommate, actually) like that in college who spent most of the year trying to convert me. It really strained our friendship and we ended up losing touch.

I just hope that you don't think ALL LDS are so pushy based on your experiences with this one girl. We're not all out to convert you, I promise! (though if you're interested, hehe.....)

As a convert to the church, many if not most of my friends are non-members...so I can understand the relationship you have with your friend, ZTA, because i'm there as well. My opinion with LDS people who have non-member friends and family is that it's not any sort of intense pressure from the church itself that leads us to want to bring people to the Gospel...it's that we love it so much and what it's done in our lives and want the people we care about to feel the same joy. I, for one, would never pressure any of my friends to learn about it if they're not interested, but am simply always here if they do have questions or want to investigate the church a bit. But the truth is, when i'm hanging out with my good friends, church isn't something i'm usually thinking too much about at that point! The advice already given was great, to express to your friend that you enjoy spending time with her but aren't interested in the church. I imagine the pressure you're sort of feeling now won't continue, she likely just wanted to share with you her happiness! As a non-member, I dated an LDS boy who I really liked, and after establishing the fact that I wasn't interested in investigating (at the time, lol), he never even asked if I wanted to go to church with him or brought it up at all.

Actually students on mission do not hurt the grad rate, I only know from an a athletic grad rate standpoint because a student that has completed a mission is excluded from the date which means it does not count for or against the institution. Besides that the grad rates at BYU are pretty good. here's a link to them just click onb and scroll down to BYU and the info will come up. If my link doesn't work you can go to NCAA.org click on education programs and research click on grad rates.

here's the link

NCAA Grad Rates

Thanks everyone for the advice! She and I don't hang out that much and only became friendly after she asked if anyone in our graduate class wanted to see the Temple. As a Christian myself I understand the need to share one's faith so I know in a way where's she's coming from. Next time it comes up I'll make my feelings known in a nice way and see what happens.

Well, I understand what she means. It CAN be a sin...*if* you have a problem with it. Because the Bible teaches if something is a problem for you, even if it's not wrong, it's best not to do it.

It all depends on the person. While most of us can kiss and not think a thing of it, other Christians might feel guilty or lustful doing it. And if they do, it is best for them not to do it. :)

Kind of off hand, but did anyone see the episode of south park about the new family that was mormon?
It intrigued me enough to read up on the facts of the religion.
I wondered if anyone here that was mormon could tell me if they saw it and their reaction.
Sarah

i'm not mormon, but i go to school in Utah so i know a whole lot about the religion...and NO not everyone in Utah is mormon. Salt Lake City is 60% non mormon just so you know ;D

If you go here, that statistic is more like 50%. Close, though.

I was sure you were wrong, so I wanted to look it up :) looks like your point was valid, though -- most of the other references I found indicate the percentage of LDS members in Utah hovers around 70-75%, but the percentage in Salt Lake City is much lower.

Is everyone at the University of Utah mormon?

Yes. Even the Catholics, Hindus and Jews there are Mormon.

I know someone who went there, and he is not Mormon. He had fun, but he had to get used to the near beer or whatever they call it. At the time, alcohol above a certain proof was not sold in that area. I forget the details.

That's what I thought, that there's a little tiny mormon wearing garments in each and every one of them.

I'm Catholic marrying a Mormon. I too felt hte pressure in the beginning but they've totally eased off. However, his dad is Catholic & he tells me that once a week w/out fail, the missionaries go to their house to talk to him. It's been over 30 years but my future father-in-law doesn't wish to convert but they don't give up. I can only hope I don't have to deal w/that type of zealousness. Oh boy. That won't be pretty.

I went to the Redlands temple last year before it was dedicated & while it was indeed beautiful, everyone kept asking me about the spiritualness & wonder you feel in the Celestial Room. I had no idea what they were talking about b/c I felt absolutely nothing other than "Gee. This is a nice room." When we left, I kept being asked if I had felt anything & I had to tell them that I didn't feel anything. I think they wanted me to feel some sort of spiritual awakening so perhaps I would consider converting. My fiancee just rolled his eyes at his family & told them that they should really stop bothering non-members friends & family about their religious practices & beliefs.

Bumping because I had a question or two.

One of my sisters was baptized LDS this weekend and was confirmed the following day. She got the full immersion in a font (I think someone on a previous page wanted to know what it was called.)

Anyway, I went to the baptism and listened to the "president" speak (bishop couldn't make it) and he mentioned something about a sealing ceremony and the whole "from here to eternity" ritual.

I guess my question is to LDS look down upon re-marriage, say if the spouse dies young? My old roommate had a lot of mormon friends in Utah and started getting a ton of wedding invites when we were 20. So what if one of the spouses passes away at the age of 35? Can the widow/er marry again after being sealed like that?

Another thing I was curious about was the elders or missionaries. The missionary that trained my sister actually performed her baptism. So I got the impression that anyone can perform a baptism or do any sort of thing in the church (speeches for example.) Is there a special blessing they need to get beforehand? I was just curious really.

FACT: Until 1974, blacks could not hold positions in the LDS church, and were only allowed to become Mormon priests by decree from the top church official elaborated on an age-old edict that declared blacks "spiritually inferior" to whites.

FACT: Brigham Young's original sermons (which are considered gospel in the LDS faith, if I'm not mistaken) contain references to black Americans who trace ancestry to Africa as decendants of Cain and Ham, and relates that these individuals will not be granted access to Heaven.

FACT: Even when blacks were admitted to the priesthood, the gospel relating spiritual inferiority for African Americans was never repealed or reinterpreted (hence "elaborated").
--

Now, these two facts have accounted for a considerable amount of what would normally be considered 'bad things', especially in Utah - the supposed inferiority of blacks led to institutionalized racism, much of which is purported to exist even today.

Utah is 0.9% black, and for good reason - it was made known that blacks weren't welcome by the LDS church.

Now . . . an organization that earns more than $7 million per DAY, but gives little back to beneficent organizations, and supported institutionalized racism into the mid-70s (that's 19, too, not 18) . . . why isn't more made of the actions of what is the FASTEST-GROWING religion on the earth?

dude, just lie to them and say you felt something. and ask them if they would liek to feel something. and then point at your crotch. have fun with it. and be like, " oh yeah man, i was totaly moved, uh huh. oh jee golly goof....so when do i get to nail you and your sister?"

i know you are a female, and i know you are probably not a lesbian since you said your fiance is going to be a husband, meaning he is a man. but that is something i wuold do. ethics smethics. I'll just go to confession. werd up up Catholism WOW!

and yes, I would stoop that low to get me some morman tail.

OUT

I laughed my ass off at this but I do have to point out something my fiance told me when I questioned him about why he never dated Mormon women. He simply states that they are homely & prudes. No life to them other than to get married & have loads of kids.

I also questioned my future mother-in-law and my fiance's cousins of which 2 are former missionaries & 2 are current missionaries. I was told that my b/c she's sealed to her parents & siblings, she'll be in heaven with them (the top level of heaven) but she's not sealed to her husband b/c he's Catholic nor is she sealed to her two children so they will be in a different heaven. One of the lower levels of heaven. At this point, I have to ask myself, why on earth would I want to believe in something that stresses family bonds yet places family at different levels of heaven? It's just weird.

At which point I would say, " yeah...uh huh....oh man, I totally agree. LATTER DAY....FUCK YEAH! SO Lick My butt and suck on myyyy balls! "

If you didn't watch TEAM AMERICA, then just ignore what I just said.