[QUOTE]Originally posted by AXJules
[B]Um yeah I know. But Greek Life is very strict at Mizzou-we follow all policies to the letter.

Hey, Jules! I tried to PM you about a Mizzou AX event but your mailbox is full....

I have a question.
Yea so it is against "THE RULES" we cherish in that annoying Green Binder but so what. We have sisters who quit our chapter and sisters who quit another sorority to join us. (Before anyone freaks, they quit a local, waited 2 years, then pledged last fall.) We had a woman depledge and now she is working to bring another NPC to campus. Here's my thing. If someone doesn't want to be part of our sisterhood, fine. That is their choice. They should have the freedom to move on and find a home. Isn't that what sorority life is all about? People change over the years. I loved my sorority when I first joined, now there are many days when I wonder why I do it. I wouldn't go join another group because that would feel wrong for me. But what about Susie who got locked in a closet for hours, paddled, and what ever else people can concieve of to 'bond' w/their new members? Say she get initiated and just can't deal with it, major regrets, she resigns all affiliation. We are now saying a NPC sorority is never allowed to be part of her life. It isn't like women are going to go around an join all 26 organizations to know our secrets, frankly they are probably not all that interesting without the people in th org actually meaning something to you.

Life would continue, for example, when AES merged into NPC all those women had to choose which sorority to stay with. The world as we know it did not come apart, in fact we are still walking around, so it might not have been a major NPC life-threatening event.

Those are just my thoughts, Take 'em or leave 'em, but please be nice.

I agree 110%. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I can also understand what it feels like to transfer schools and not have your GLO at that new school... to miss greek life and not have anyone to share it with.

I went back to school for a semester to a school that didn't have DO. I was so lost... I started to pledge a local but dropped out quickly (long story). Had I gone on to initiate, or been eligible to become a member of an NPC sorority... I would still love DO all the same.

Like I said... I understand the reasoning for this rule. But the actual people are much different than the black & white of the green book (too many colours!)

Like anything else, we unfortunately have to make this rule based on the lowest common denominator out there. I'm sure there are women out there who could handle leaving one NPC and joining another gracefully, but I'm just as sure that there are women who would use that leeway to be just plain bitches.

Ditto. I talked about transfers and why I think they should be allowed to re-join a different group at their new school (provided their old group isn't there) in another thread, but we hardly touched on people double-initiating at the same campus and I don't think it's necessarily as terrible as people have said. We like to think that all Greeks are as great as us but that is clearly not the case -- and a lot of things are hidden, especially in sororities, until after initiation. There have been girls who have joined a house only to find out that half the members have a coke problem that is bringing the whole house down. There have been guys who joined a house and had one of their brothers rape one of their female friends. There have been a lot of cases where people were betrayed by people who were supposed to be their sisters and brothers.

And honestly? I think it is absolutely fantastic that there are people who have such open minds that they are willing to try Greek life again, that they are willing to say, "Okay, that was horrible but not all Greeks are like this." Because nobody would blame them for buying into Greek "stereotypes" if they're proven true to them. But there are people out there who have been screwed over and they still believe in true brotherhood/sisterhood and I think it's ridiculous to deprive them of that. Isn't that exactly the kind of person we want in our organizations?

In thirty years, do we want these people saying to their kids, "Yeah, I was in a fraternity in college and all we did was party and I ended up getting into some bad isht because of it and almost dropping out of school before I ended up dropping the fraternity instead. I don't want that to happen to you"? Or do we want them saying, "I was in one fraternity in college that was a really bad experience, but I ended up joining a different one where the guys were all really great and supportive and I'm still friends with a lot of them today and they came to my dad's funeral when he died, and I would give anything for you to have that same experience"?

Personally I think Greek life is a contract, and if an organization doesn't give you what they promised -- in this case brotherhood or sisterhood -- then you should be able to drop without getting punished. It's not your fault. Of course there should be rules, or there will be lots of cases like AXJules mentioned where people just drop out because they want to join another house for no good reason. But I think that there enough times where people drop for decent reasons that this rule should be at least reconsidered.

Maybe...
 

Maybe the NPC should have a rule similar to the NIC one. A member can initiate into a second if they acquire a letter from the first stating that membership is canceled. I would definitely limit it to two and definitely limit it to tranfer situations. That way, no one would be bouncing from group to group, but people who have bad experiences at one school could get a fresh start. And if the second organization is knowledgable of the past and is still willing to accept that person as a new member, then I guess it would be a chapter by chapter thing. I mean honestly, other than it being a rule, is there a difference between being a sister of an NPC and a local/regional/ multi-cultural? They are all social. They are all great in their own ways. Why is one morally OK and the other not? I mean I know it's a rule and all but why not say no socials at all instead of just NPC socials.

If a woman was initiated into an NPHC org, transferred and went to a campus w/o her org, I STRONGLY doubt she would go through NPC rush. They would likely try to start a new chapter.

My previous question [apologies if it was unclear :)] was more along the lines of - Would an NPC org view membership in a NPHC org as an immediate disqualification?

That makes so much sense...I'm suprised NPC hasn't picked up that idea yet!!! Whats good for the gander is also good for the goose :D or how ever that goes!

A good high school friend of mine who rushed last fall (2003), had a major falling out with her NPC group shortly after she became a full member, leading to some serious emotional abuse by another member among other drama! Her only options were deactivate or early alumna or something like that. As you can imagine, her opinions of greek life are very distorted...like we need any more negative PR. Particulary for that NPC. She feels very cheated out of well rounded college life and frankly I would too!

I mean the lifetime membership law has its heart in the right place, but I think its more detrimental in as many cases as it tries to help.

NIC has it right, make it circumstantial and consentual between GLOs.

Same with Kappa Delta.

Say this DOES happen: A girl transfers to her new school and the new rules state that she can join another NPC since her new school doesn't have XYZ. She joins ABC, but then her a chapter of XYZ colonizes at her school. What happens then? I'm wondering if that's the reason NPC's going to give for not changing the rules.

Fortunately that is NOT the case with Phi Mu. When a member relinquishes her membership, she has voluntarily withdrawn her membership for any number of reasons. Should she come to her senses in later years, she can petition to the National Council for reinstatement. I know...I recently helped a sister find her way home. It was a joyous moment for us.

If a member is dismissed from membership, usually she can not reinstate her membership. National Council always has the final decision.

Well I have to admit the chances of that happening compared to the more common senarios I was speaking of in my post are slim to none. But the thing is she FORMALLY withdrew her affilation to XYZ, it doesn't really matter what her status is with XYZ since she is NOW an ABC.

In the hypothetical contract, her conditions for release would be to remain silent about her "sacred" knowledge of XYZ and to never be a part of it again no matter what. She may feel that her orginal loyality lies with XYZ but she gave up the privledge of being one to be an ABC. We should also understand, abeit precious and extremely important, our organizations are so much more than the secret rituals and meaning. They make it "special" for us to unify with our sisters under a common ideal and shared experience. But they were NOT the primary reason why social sororities were founded. Because if it was really all about that...I should be able to know the ideals of the sorority before joining, right? And I hold my sorority initation very dear, but it will never hold a candle to any religious ceremony I choose to particpate in.

I'm sure there is a reason, beyond what I am proposing, why NPC sees the one memeber ship rule...but the only way to be a lasting insitution is to change with the times. Even Christianty has evolved and it has God on its side. ;)

very interesting
 

Hey thanks everybody for responding, i was generally wondering where you all would put your loyality, more so than the npc rules. she was thinking of leaving npc to join a local sorority so the rules would not have applied to her. i was just hoping if anybody had gone through a similar situation if they could share it.

Re: very interesting
 

On the same campus or a different campus? If she's transferring and will probably not be in contact with her NPC anymore that's one thing. But if she wants to quit, after being an active sister, and join another social sorority (local, national, regional, whatever) on her same campus that's another story. Not cool.

As to being able to quit one NPC and join another -

I think one of the reasons we have this rule and NIC doesn't is the same reason we have tons of rush rules and NIC doesn't. One of the tenets of NPC is to look out for other NPC groups and help each other. (In theory, anyway.)

I sympathize with people who have been hazed and people in the transfer situation...I just feel that it's a slippery slope. Not everyone has good intentions and there would be people pulling isht on their chapters like "well, they hazed me, I want to join another group" when it's not true, and people transferring solely to switch sororities (I can especially see this happening in the South).

Re: very interesting
 

We terminated a sister from Gamma Phi Beta. She then joined one of the locals. She's an alum of them now because she got kicked out of school.

Re: Re: very interesting
 

From MY experience (being female, I can say this!), I think the extra rules we have in NPC (versus NIC) is because women are more concerned with their "appearance" and "status" (popularity) in "society" (in this case, the campus). On some campuses, if you don't get a bid everyone knows and your social life is non-existant...so some may choose to take a bid and hope to switch groups later (of course, NPC prevents that). I think that's why we also have all these recruitment rules, total, quota, silence, and all that stuff. We females can be very catty and underhanded!!! :) Guys (in general) just don't operate quite on the same level.

Sure in some places, the sororities can operate and thrive under NIC guidelines. But in other places, it would be nasty.

Also, as someone else has shared earlier, we on GreekChat are not necessarily representive of the whole GLO population. We're here and we join into these discussions because we see our GLO and Greek Life as something more serious. Not everyone is as interested in it as we are. There are some people who see it as a college thing only....and when they leave college, they sever all ties and start with a new social life somewhere else. Doesn't mean they didn't contribute while they were in college. Just a different outlook on things.

/ramble
PsychTau

Transferring to another school
 

<The views below are mine and mine alone. They in NO way represent any official Gamma Phi Beta position>

As someone who transferred to another school (and knows a number of other women who have done the same thing) I do not agree that transfer students should be able to join a new group just becasue they pick a school that doesn't have their GLO. BAD reason, choose a school that has your GLO if it's that important.

And before any of you jump down my throat, I have not always thought that Gamma Phi was a wonderful organization.

When I was a pledge, our chapter had about 30-50 women on a campus where total was over 100. My freshman year was spent listening to why or why not we should continue at that campus. If you have never been a part of that discussion, it is not something I would ever wish on my worst enemy. We prided ourselves on the fact that we were small and had a great sisterhood. However, that experience pitted sister against and got ugly at times. And yes, the chapter did close.

But, I was a pledge for a YEAR. I had ample opportunity to leave Gamma Phi. BUT I DIDN'T.

I transferred midway through my sophomore year (totally grade related) and came home to regroup. 1.5 years later I transferred to another 4 year college and of the 3 schools I looked at, 2 had Gamma Phi chapters. I visited UPS and the Gamma Phi house and that is where I finally ended up. And I had a wonderful time.

I consider it LUCK that I am still a Gamma Phi (lucky they kept me at some times). My experience as a freshman could have soured me for the whole organization (and it did for a short amount of time) but I got over it. Even the women who went through total hell over the chapter closing still remained Gamma Phis. I am now more involved as a Gamma Phi than I ever was and even though at times I feel burned out, I don't see my involvement changing anytime soon.

Am I that loyal to anything else? NO (family excluded)

And as for the women who are hazed, well they aren't the ones who should leave the organization.

Re: very interesting
 

You like this? Ask a question, get 7 pages of answers:D

As a member of a fraternity, I realize I come from a different world. If another organization has low enough standards to take someone that we had no use for, then more power to 'em.

In my eyes, someone that was actually initiated into another fraternity is "damaged goods".

Re: Re: very interesting
 

That's why I think, if it were to be allowed, there would have to be restrictions and a process. Also-it would have to be known to the second organization. They'd have to take it into consideration and make their own decision. It sould still be a mutual selection process. Some chapters may decide yes, some may decide no. I think its about choice. There should be rules-yes. But there should be appeals processes and exceptions with limitations in almost every situation. Just MO.

Re: Re: very interesting
 

I'm guessing you mean to add "and then leaves that org and tries to join another"........:D

Re: Re: Re: very interesting
 

It'd be funnier if he meant everyone that is initiated into a fraternity. :p

I think think the important thing here is that we all follow the rules, whether we like them or not. Yeah, I don't like what happened to transfer students, but I'm also not rushing again. I think I'll enjoy my Alumnae Chapter more once I am 21. ;)

Re: Re: very interesting
 

Amen.

Why are we having this discussion again anyway? Here's what always happens:

1. The discussion gets heated. Again.
2. Carnation or another big-university alum comes on and confirms that people would abuse this, especially in the South.
3. Someone then comes on and says the sorority members in the South are racist, sexist, antifeminist, allother ist because of this.
4. Flame war starts in earnest.

If you transfer and your friends are all Alpha Betas, why do you have to wear their letters to hang with them? And especially at a competitive university--why would you want to take the pledge spot that someone else who's never pledged could have?

If not being able to pledge a second group is the worst thing that happens in your college life, count yourself lucky.

I did not mean that comment as negative toward the South in ANY way...it is just a fact that sorority connections are taken more seriously there than at other places and ergo, people would be more motivated to make the "right" ones.

This happens in other facets of life too - such as people taking a lower job in a prestigious company just so they can say they work at that company, or athletes transferring to a football or baseball "powerhouse" high school where they know recruiters will be hanging around more than Bad Athlete High where they should be going.

People break the rule up here all the time at big schools. It's not just the South that would have a problem. It's definitely a problem at Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, etc - anywhere where people transfer from a smaller school to a larger one where their NPC isn't.

Oh, 33girl--I know you weren't being ugly!, No offense taken and I think you're right. What I object to is when people start insulting Southerners because we do take recruitment and membership seriously. There's no need for those folks to flame us!

Considering that Initiation is one of the most special and secret parts of sorority membership, I can't imagine anyone would be happy at, say Kappa Delta, if one of their girls quit after Initiation and then joined, say Delta Gamma and went through our Initiation. You can forget secret and special anymore. Everyone would know everyone elses deal. Hey, maybe we'd learn they are all the same, I don't know. But my point is that swapping in and out of groups could get crazy!

Carnation, again, is the voice of reason here....

and I dunno that I think it's all that bad, how membership (and recruitment) are taken more seriously in the South. It just kinda... is.

You see some of that from school to school..... the girls who LIVE in their letters, vs. the ones who think they might own a pair somewhere in the back of their closet. Makes sense it'd vary across the country, too.

please help
 

i found this thread so its a bit old- but pertinant to my situation. We allowed a good friend of mine from another local to basically become honorary at my local. She would wear letters only for recruitment- but now she's attending meetings and wearing letters- our charm and participating in basically everything. The deal was that she was going to see a two pledge classes go through before she was allowed to be on the roster b/c she's going to my school part time...

recently she's been very shady- she's hooked up with 4 different guys on 4 different occasions - once with another sister and THREE times with me... this past time (last night- with our sou chef at work) just broke it for me... i can't deal and now sisters are telling me that they are upset that she wears letters and hasn't earned them... The situation is completely out of control and i don't know what to do.

Basically, she was having a very difficult family situation and we took her in- she moved into the house- we got jobs togehter (so i'm her taxi) and she's going to school here.... everything she has right now (basically) is because of us and mostly me since i got her here.... and i feel hurt- betrayed- and taken advantage of....

any suggestions?

question: how does one national sorority know if someone was a previous initiated member of another? is it more of an honor system? what if a girl intiates into one sorority, tranfers to another school, and initiates into another secretly? just wondering.

AlethiaSi,

I'm really sorry to be so blunt, but it sounds like you all didn't think through what you were doing. When you set up "fuzzy wuzzy" arrangements, you can't be mad later when the other party oversteps the fuzzy boundaries.

If she wasn't a sister, why did you let her wear your letters? Doesn't that now give her the impression that she's one of you? I don't blame her for thinking she could do the things you describe (go to events, etc). How come nobody said, "Hey, I know you enjoy participating with us, but it's not appropriate for you to attend our meetings until you're accepted for membership"? Because you all didn't think to make the boundaries clear, you're now going to have a difficult time asking her to step back (or away).

I don't mean to be so harsh, but sometimes we need to take these things as learning lessons. You say she needed help and you gave her assistance. I know you're disappointed in her now, but you willingly gave her your help, right? You're now mad at her because she isn't following your plan? It may suck for you, but I don't see how this amounts to a "betrayal". You gave, she took.

As for her sleeping around, that's not your fault and your sisters shouldn't be giving you grief about it. So what if you invited her along? It sounds to me like they willingly played along with this arrangement.

Perhaps it's time for you and some of your officers to sit down with her and explain to her that her behavior has overstepped the lines of good taste and that you will not be considering her for membership. Then kindly ask her to not attend anymore of your events, ask her to move out of your house, and tell her to get her own ride to work. It's gonna blow up, but you all need to pay that price now if you want things to get fixed. Sorry, I wish I had better news for you.

.....Kelly :)

If she is not initated she is not allowed to go to other for one year but if she is she can join another. That is if it's an NPC organization.

However, if it is a local organization they might have different rules. But just think about it a little. Yes you might feel betrayed but if she doesn't want to be there then she probably won't be any good to your chapter. The best sister are always there and would not want to leave for another house.

Re: please help
 

I can sympathize, because some of my (more naive) sisters allowed a girl who was the best friend of a legacy to wear one of our jackets. She ended up pledging another sorority. Needless to say, we never did that again.

You just need to sit her down and say "we've given you all these privileges but you haven't given us anything back. You're done. Unless you want to pledge - but if you do, you need to curb your ho-like behavior."

Re: Re: please help
 

haha :D

well- eboard met and the president and the pm are going to meet with her to talk about it- and she will have to prove that she knows her stuff- testing on her on the pledge book- etc...

should be interesting...

i haven't talked with her yet... i haven't had an opportunity- but i will soon and i'm going to try to seperate it from the sorority- its more of a friend thing now....

thanks for the advice:)

Maybe I have the wrong idea, but...
 

Alethi, perhaps you should talk to your Executive Board (and Risk Management Chairman) about creating affiliate membership positions in your chapter for occasions like this.