I was referring to the overall theme or genre of the movie, which was supposed to be that women can do anything they want, whether that be going to Yale Law School or getting married and having children, or both.

I am quite sure that my school, a COED school, would also in some ways resemble that, considering that my mom had to wear skirts to class and was not even allowed to enter the buildings wearing pants.

I think you missed my point.

Your mom wasn't in school in the 1990s and the early 21st century. We had to wear skirts to school to, but it was a uniform. They didn't add pants until 1997. Boarders had to wear skirts or dresses to dinner on weeknights until 1994 or so. But that doesn't mean that the teachers encouraged us to marry. We may have had activities with the boys' schools, but we certainly were expected to do well in school, go to a good university and get a good job. We were high school girls, after all. As for the movie, we all assumed that Joan (Julia Stiles' character) would go to Yale, didn't we? Didn't you think that Katherine looked a little upset at the end? That's what I mean by the "that's nice, dear" comment. It's still there. You'd unlikely get that if you choose to have a career.

You are still missing my point. And actually, my mom was in school then. :rolleyes:

Your point was that there are choices, and we are free to make whatever choice we want. However, these days, women who make a more "traditional" choice is often seen as being worse off than someone who decides to have a career, never marry or have children. Sure, she's asked the often tiring "hey, when are you going to settle and have kids" question, but it never sounds as bad as the "that's nice, dear" (also known as the "Oh" comment) comment that many SAHMs get. Especially SAHMs with graduate degrees. Did you see the Oprah episode with the cast of MLS? Remember what the girl at the end said and how her ideas often conflicted with her mom's?

Um, I don't really watch Oprah, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

At the very end, Oprah spoke to a girl and her mom. The girl, who is a sophmore studying engineering said that she liked the idea of marrying and staying home. Her mom thought it was the most horrible idea in the world. Mom thought that the girl should use her education to get a good job, because that's what women have been fighting for all along. The mother thought that her daughter should continue the struggle for women's advancement, but here the girl was, telling her mother that she didn't want to do it

But what is the point of her studying engineering then? Why not just major in something easy? Unless she's doing engineering to meet more men. :p

and we're back to the mrs degree..:p

She could have been pressured to major in engineering by her family or her school (my cousin falls into this category). Or, she thought that she wanted to take engineering when she was in high school, and decided to finish the degree, because changing her major to, say, English, may require her to take another year of school.

One of the biggest factors in me wanting to work no matter what was NOT wanting to be dependent on someone else. There are no guarantees in this world and if you're just depending on HIM and his income, you are vulnerable. Divorce, disability or death could make you bankrupt in no time.

Another consideration for women in the U.S. is how much you've contributed to Social Security. My mom stayed home until I was in 4th grade or so. Then she went back to college. She earned her degree when I was 15 and started working then. By the time I was 23, she and my dad were divorced. By the time I was 28, she was disabled. She gets very little Social Security because she didn't work for very long and if you get divorced, you are not entitled to your ex-husbands benefits at all. If you do not get divorced, then you're ok, because you get to tap into his if he dies. Nobody enters marriage planning to get divorced, but the reality is that 1 of 2 marriages end in divorce and in many states, if your spouse wants a divorce, you will be divorced no matter how you feel about it.

I was lucky that my mom was able to be my primary child care provider the entire time that my children were infants.

Lastly, I think that either way, there are people who look down on you. SAHM's definitely make comments about moms who work and vice versa. I do have a SAHM friend who had to join a support group of other SAHMs to cope with the lack of outside stimulation. She also had to go to work when her husband decided to go to med school and she was suddenly on the phone with me saying "How do you get everything done????". There are pros and cons to both, but for me, more than anything, I'm not willing to risk being financially dependent on anybody, ever.

Dee

It is scary to think of where I would be should anything happen to my darling husband. We have lots of large insurance policies - for both disability and death. I really can't say much on the divorce - I don't see us ever heading down that road but if we should traverse it, I feel confident in my own abilities to land a job that would take care of mine and my childrens needs. I also know some mean divorce attorneys!

Perhaps this is part of what the article referred to - women today do feel more confident in the choice to stay at home, and if the provider is unable to provide, then they have degrees to take care of themselves if they need to. Unfortunately, this was not the case for most of our mothers.

For me personally, I don't feel dependent on my husband. Everything is both of our names - all bank accounts, cars, house, etc. He is self-employed, and we have good years and bad years. We have learned to save up during the good years so that we will have plenty to fall back on during the off years. Our finances are a partnership, just as our home life is. I keep things running smoothly on one end - groceries, cooking, cleaning, laundry, children etc and he keeps things going on the other so he can deposit a check each month.

I have experienced both sides - working with a child, and staying at home with my children. My own preference is to stay at home. The great thing is that we all have the choice, and most of us are flexible enough to be able to work at home or go out and get a job should we need one. It is difficult no matter which side of the fence you sit on, and we as women should be respectful of both sides. At least we do have a choice!

I swear I wasn't going to say anything but this last quote did it.
I find your references to your experiences in a private girls school annnoying because I don't see the correlation of how high schools girls and college graduate women have the same decisions to make. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

I too remembered this episode of Oprah discussing the film Mona Lisa Smile. The woman in question was a junior engineering major at Northwestern University,Evanston, IL. Present tuition is $37,491 per year. That's a enormous amount of money to invest in for an education. Her mother has every right to question her daughter's decisions at this stage if she's paying the bills. As to the woman being "pressured" by the university, my brother is an alumnus and I can assure you there are no civil rights being violated that warrant involvement from Amnesty International when it comes to choosing your major or changing your major. If she was a sophmore there's still time to change your major.

As to your references of "that's nice" as a response when a woman says she's a SAHM. I would hope that she has enough confidence in herself that she wouldn't need to have validation of others for her decision.

I should have said that she may have been pressured by her HIGH SCHOOL to major in engineering. We don't know. Most of us don't know who the girl on the show is. My cousin wasn't pressured by her high school, but by her family. Her mother said that whether she paid the tuition or not, my cousin had to major in Civil Engineering. No choices. The reason high school was brought up was because one of the posters mentioned that the school in the article was a "finishing school"

how the h*ll would a high school pressure someone into majoring in something?? i have never heard of a school here doing that, they will offer guidance to you when getting ready to apply and after you have been accepted to a school, but they don't push you into a particular major. they find out what you want to do and help you work towards that. and if someone doesn't have the balls to say that s/he doesn't want to major in one thing any more, s/he wants to switch but doesn't, then i'm sorry, but s/he gets absolutely no sympathy for me regardless of whether they stay at home or work.

There are schools that subtly do that. We don't know if the girl on the show went to an all girls' school or not, but I do know that many have seminars on women in maths and sciences, and try to steer girls away from more traditional majors. It usually doesn't work all that well, but I can tell you that over half the girls take more than one math course in their senior year and almost all take one math.

that's because just like college, high schools have requirements for graduation. we had to take a certain number of math, science, social studies, etc classes to graduate, and that usually works out to be at least one a year. i have many friends that went to all girls private schools, i applied to an all girls private school but decided i wanted to stay in public school. none of them were ever pressured, subtly or not, into doing certain things. that may have been your experience, but you can't generalize it to everyone.

Taking two maths was not a senior requirement at my school or any school, public or private in Ontario. It wasn't even a requirement after Grade 10 (Grade 11 at my school). Girls at all girls' schools are more likely to take maths and sciences beyond what is required. Also, Mu, when did you graduate from high school (approximate year is ok)? I graduated in the late 90s, several years after the girls' school study was released (I think it was released either in the late 80s or early 90s). Now, of course, they're saying that boys also benefit from being in a single gendered classroom.

1998

I know girls that went to Havergal, and in no way were they pressure, subtly or otherwise into doing something they did not want to do.
My friend went to Havergal for highschool because her parents believed she would receive a better education than from public school. Schools are there to educate so that students can make their choices based on solid knowledge, not on a whim.

I think you're confusing pressure with encouragment.

Yeah, I compared the school to a finishing school--in that they, more than their contemporaries, really push social graces. Last time I checked, that's what one was...

How can a high school pressure students into majoring in something in college? I know I was like, "eff all ya'll" when I graduated from HS. My college never gave me any pressure to major in anything, either. My parents didn't either. What a terrible life I lead...

I'm glad the school pressures social graces. We need it in this day and age! Too bad most schools no longer do that. I find it really sad. Anyway, colleges never pressure their students to major in one thing or another. They shouldn't...it's not their job. Besides, students are usually 18 or pretty close to 18 when they're in their first year. Some parents, however, do pressure their kids. My parents never did, but I know that inside, they would have preferred that I majored in Life Sciences (premed) than history/drama. Looking back, I somewhat agree. Drama was bad for me, and I'm now somewhat embarassed that I did that.

I'm sure a lot of parents would have prefered if they kids had made different choices in certain aspects of their lives. However, by the time we're 18 and heading of to university/college we should be able to make our own desicions and learn from our own mistakes.
Parents should stay out of it. They can offer suggestions/guidence...that's what they are there for, but not to pressure anyone, that's not there job. As an adult, if you can't make your own descions, well I don't know what to say...

1. Tell that to immigrant parents who expect their kids to help them out of poverty

2. Tell that to parents who expect their only child to follow in their footsteps and perhaps inherit their business.

That kids needs to stand up to their parents. If they aren't willing to do that, then that's there own problem and will suffer.

Some kids (including adult children) can't do that, especially kids of immigrant parents (the girl who was on Oprah probably didn't fall into that category, since her mom speaks fluent English). You do as you're told, end of story. The CBC (or maybe Global...it was a Canadian network) interviewed a Chinese Canadian man who was a police officer. He is also a doctor, because his mother and father wanted him to do so. Up until the interview, his parents didn't know that he gave up his practice and went to police college. Not sure if his parents are all that happy about the career change.

A relative of mine in the US (he's related to me by marriage) decided to join the Marines after graduating high school in the late 90s. He's still in it, the last time I checked, and is out in Iraq right now. Anyway, all the adults in the family were not exactly all that happy when he signed up, and criticized him for not going to college right away. Apparently his mother cried.

That's their problem though. They always have a choice. It might not be one they like, but they do have a choice. Either do what will make you happy and run the risk of upsetting/alienating yourself from your family, or suck it up and do what the parents wish.

I've made choices that my parents weren't exactly thrilled with, and yes it hurts when they are upset with me, but you know what, I had to do what was right for me. If I was trying to please my parents all the time I would go nuts.
No wonder these kids have problems.

Maybe instead of the social graces you think these kids should be taught, they could have a class on how to grow a pair instead. I went to the last university that my parents wanted me to go to, and majored in the last thing they wanted me to study. They dealt with it, and they still paid for it. And don't try and throw that cultural crap at me - if you want to play that way, then I was pressured into going to college because that's what nice Irish Catholic girls from the suburbs do, and the guy who panhandles on the 10th Street Bridge does so because that's what poor black people in the city do. :rolleyes:

Lady Pi Phi,

These people aren't messed up. They just grew up in a different culture. Some immigrant parents are really "old country" and raise their kids that way. Others are more like my parents, people who are a little more liberal. These kids, unlike us, accept what their parents say. Only a few (like the cop mentioned in my previous post) dare to rebel. It's just the way it is. They're probably not going to raise their kids the same way though.

-Taualumna

Then they have to live with the choices they make. I don't know why you feel I should have sympathy for them. I'm not bashing their culture or they way they grow up. But I will not listen to anyone bitch about how bad they have if they do not make an attempt to change it.

But I'm sure they are making changes, they just respect their elders in a way that they don't say anything to their parents and other older relatives. It's not considered proper to do so. That doesn't mean that they're going to pressure their own kids into medicine (it's usually meds. Law school isn't really something they consider) or dictate the way they should live out their lives.

Well it's not really respectful if they go behind their parents back and do things they disapprove of now is it?

It all depends on how they live and where they live. If the parents live with the family, then the family'll probably be more traditional. It'll be a little difficult for their parents to control how a couple raises their children if they only see them, say, twice a month. But yes, in some very, very, very traditional families, even third generation Canadians/Americans are still somewhat "Old Country". It takes time, Lady Pi Phi.

Like I said, I don't know why you want me to have sympathy for them then...I don't. They can live their lives the way they want. If they are un happy it's there problem, and over time they can change it or live with it. It doesn't mater one way or the other to me.
But I grow weary of this argument. You win, you can have the last word. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Besides, this thread is now way off topic. We should be discussion women who want to be stay at home mothers, but instead we're arguing about kids who can't stand up to their parents because of "old world" traditions.

How about it's not the school's job? None of the grade schools I attended (among the top in my state) taught me etiquette and other such things---but guess who did? MY PARENTS, THAT'S WHO! I know and practice all sorts of social customs that are seen as downright archaic by others, and it's due to my upbringing. It's not the school's responsibility. As a result, those schools who still teach such customs do are usually seen in a different light.

You really can't hide behind cultural excuses...haven't we been saying that it's all about CHOICE? I have friends who are 1st and 2nd generation Americans who have been urged into certain career paths by their parents--some have CHOSEN to become doctors and lawyers to fund their parents' retirements, while others CHOSE to follow their hearts. End of story.

How about mom and dad not having the time to teach social graces to their kids? The girl in the article did say that both her parents worked long hours. As for children of immigrants, often they say that it is a choice, but in reality isn't. They're very much pressured into saying yes. It's like more traditional arranged marriages.

It really bothers me when parents send their children to extremely expensive private schools, and then work so much to pay for it that they don't have the time to be parents.

I know public school parents who don't spend lots of time with their kids either. Many people have really demanding jobs and therefore don't have time for their kids. Of course, one of them can always give up their jobs, but not all would want to do such a thing. Personally, I think kids whose parents don't have time for them at home are better off in boarding school where they'll receive better care.

It can be very cold for women who are childless by choice. Kids are great, especially when they go back to their rightful owners! :) It amazes me that once women pass 25, everyone assumes they want babies a plenty, but men don't get the same pressure in american society. What reallllllllllllllly boils my blood is when people tell me "oh, you'll change your mind":mad: Waht I want to say is: "That's funny, b/c you don't seem to be changing your comb over into a more flattering haristyle. But, you'll change your mind" :p

But don't you think that there are families that wonder why their 40something son isn't married yet? Or some families wondering why their 21 year old son has never had a girlfriend? Guys don't have the same pressure because, well, guys don't get pregnant.

WTF? That's like saying we should all be pregnant. I know a lot of guys who have pressure from their families to not date until they've graduated.