Size/looks does play a role in selection... however let's not forget that it is hard for a chapter to cut girls. It's not like ALL sisters sit around after parties making their lists like "Oh that girl was wearing pants that I KNOW I saw in Walmart last week I can't believe she wears Walmart clothes... or... oh yeah Suzy Smith, she was kinda chubby the boys won't like her" (at least I should hope not)
It is ALMOST always a tough decision on who to cut and we do have to see these women around who didnt' get bids. I know at least for me (becuase this just happened to me) When I'm in Target, wearing letters no less, and the girl at the camera counter turns around to help me, and it's a girl who just came to COB events and ended up not getting a bid... I feel kinda akward and bad... no matter the reason why we ended up not extending this woman a bid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though people may make cuts for shallow reasons sometimes.... it's usually NEVER done in a spirit of meanness (at least I should hope not, and I know my chapter always remains very respectful when we are discussing potential sisters.

Is it possible to cut for shallow reasons without that automatically being considered mean? Isn't mean and acting shallowly almost synonymous?

I don't care if we actly meanly per se . . . but I hate to sugar coat it :)

I think sometimes if you haven't gotten to know someone or if you have too many women coming back, you have to cut for shallow reasons.

This whole thread has gotten off track of what James was trying to say because someone decided to share their repulsive views and make the rest of us sick as well. What James ORIGNALLY said or was trying to say is, just doing everything right is not enough. You have to have something that makes you memorable and makes you stand out. Maybe simple inoffensiveness and doing what everyone else did got you over in high school but in college, it stops working.

I think the number of sororites out there who are straight up saying, "We have to get the beautiful girls or the Sig Eps won't mix with us!" is low. But pandering to what the frats want is such an ingrained part of the sorority rush process that I don't think most women even realize that that's what's going on. That is one of the major feminist criticisms of the rush process -- and one of the most valid, I think. (I originally typed "vapid" . . . Freudian slip!) It's just come to be accepted that being beautiful helps you get into a sorority, and most of us realize that good lucks are one of the things we look for in rushees (along with, and hopefully in most cases secondary to, good personalities and good manners) . . . and I don't believe for a second that "people like being surrounded by good looking people" is the main reason for that.

There is a reason that almost no campuses have a "fat fraternity" but almost every campus has a "fat sorority."

Part of this has grown out of the fact that mixers form the major part of most sorority social lives, but frat parties form an equally major part of most fraternity social lives. If the sororities aren't popular with the fraternities, the social aspect of their dues is going to waste because they won't be able to mix. But if the fraternities aren't popular with the sororities, all they have to do is throw a party with free beer and all the freshman girls will come a-running in their tube tops and miniskirts. ;) Sororities are, unfortunately, just more dependant on fraternities than fraternities are on them for a successful social life. Which means that part of their membership selection criteria will, more often than not, pander to that unless they are able to reinvent the idea of the typical sorority social events.

This is going to sound hokey, but I thought dealing with getting cut during rush was going to be the hardest part of sorority life -- it wasn't. Sitting in on membership selection and having to cut girls whom I had never met or letting my sisters cut girls I genuinely liked was so much harder.

And, in my opinion, that reason is not the Greek System, but the values of beauty placed on women in society. We had a semester in Phi Psi, at FSU, where the phrase "you're fat" became similar to "aloha." It was used as a toungue-in-cheek greeting and farewell. This would never happen in a women's organization. Men who gain weight are not devalued in the same way that women are. There are weight issues with men in fraternities, but it is simply a health issue and not an identity issue.

Also, the point about sororities needing fraternities for social activities, to the extent experienced by today's undergraduates, is less than a 20 year old development. "Risk management" did not exist in the Greek world in 1980. Sororities, to the best of my knowledge, have not increased the premium on looks as their dependence on fraternities as social outlets has increased. Consider that women are more likely to dress well for other women than for men. This is a reality in society. I believe that sororities simply reflect society in this aspect of the sorority recruitment value system.

I agree -- I don't think that any of the problems that the sorority system struggles with are anything that you can't see in the rest of society. It's just that in the Greek system they are mirrored in our unique little customs like sorority rush and pinning ceremonies and dirty serenades.

James, what a hurtful thing to post on here! :(

I never went through NPC rush but I know of one particular girl...one of my SAI sisters....who did.

And she was cut from all five sororities.

Must really be something wrong with her, right? Some big flaw, she must be a really bad girl.

Well, not so. She got cut because she is very shy. A VERY sweet girl, but not real outgoing. She's beautiful, sweet, funny, kind, etc...and everyone that knows her loves her. She was just too shy during Rush, and she knows it.

But shouldn't we be held to a higher standard? Greek organizations talk about "our values"... maybe we should live up to them. There will come a day when we're alumns and fraternity boys won't make a difference.

True - if we wanted to have a party, we had one and invited whoever. This is the main reason I hate the sorority alcohol policies, they seem to not understand that this doesn't make people drink less, it makes them dependent on others (usually fraternities) for alcohol. My sorority social life was definitely not dependent on mixers - we did not have them every week, but we certainly had other outlets. That's another policy that sucks - the whole "3 sisters in one place is an event" crap. So if alphabug, LionTamer and I went to a party at the wrestling house, it would all of a sudden be an ASA event. Totally @#$%ing asanine.

did you not read my last post or James' original post??????? That is EXACTLY what we said.

Read what the original point of this thread was, not the path it has taken.

the whole three sisters is an event thing comes because that's when insurance is responsible for you I believe.... s although it is sometimes a pain becasue you kinda have to be more careful when it's an "chapter event" at least you are protected. Maybe my greek system is different because we don't have any houses... but here our girls throw parties on our own all the time and invite the boys... we just don't use chapter money to but the alcohol and althugh I guess it technically is an "event" since usually more than three of us are there we don't advertise it with our letters or say it's a Phi Sig party or anything.. it's word of mouth I think not having an offical house can be helpful in that way because then it would be dry... but since our chapter just has sisters that live together in their own apartments...

i totally agree with james. there's a girl who's rushed our house three times and has not once gotten a bid. she's very aggressive and disrespectful, and we just don't want her as a representative of our house. we are not in the business of teaching social skills.

Uh...sorry I was so slow to reply....but I'm totally confused. my post was referring to James' original post. I do agree that, many times, if you do not get a bid, there was a good reason for it. GLOs have the right to extend a bid only to people they feel would be an asset to their chapter.

However, what I meant was that sometimes there is a girl who would have made a FANTASTIC member, but for whatever reason, she didn't get a bid. Perhaps she was too shy during rush. Maybe her best qualities didn't happen to shine through. Her grades might not have been high enough. Whatever. Does that mean they didn't deserve to be in a sorority? Of course not. Sororities have to base membership selection on what they see. And I totally understand that. But it's hurtful to say they shouldn't have gotten a bid.

JAMES DID NOT SAY THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN A BID, HE SAID THAT IS WHY THEY DIDN'T GET A BID.

Sorry to shout, but I just feel like you are overpersonalizing the issue, rather than seeing what was actually said.

33girl I have PMd you.

Like I said...

received, and let's just consider this matter closed.

Sorry I misunderstood your point, James. I guess we all misread things sometimes. :)

did you ever consider....
 

that just as some chapters on some campuses are highly selective in the ways they decide who is extended an invitation to join, that the same can be said for some pnm's? there will be some pnm's who would never consider joining a chapter that was not in the top tier on their campus, whose members weren't the
"campus queens" and were drop dead gorgeous. selection works both ways, and each side can be equally superficial when they make their choices.such is life.

I think rush at Southern schools must be so different. The first time I went through rush I got cut completely first round. I found out later because of something weird to do with my gpa ... but I knew a lot of girls that got cut. I mean now its fine bcause I ended up where I am suppose to be but for ya'll to say that people only get cut because there is something seriously wrong witht them is just really wrong and makes pnm scared of rush.

I was just thinking, what if they had to tell you WHY they cut you?


BTW, the new Lilly Pulitzer Spring dress catalog arrived in the mail today. Who could cut a girl in a Lilly???:D

I actually had someone at Ole Miss that rushed me and was in a class with me. After I was cut by this sorority, she told me later that she really wanted me, but some of the other girls thought my teeth were too big. No joke. They aren't crooked, I don't have any front teeth missing, no black teeth, etc. They were just a bit too 'big' for them.

I thought it was really an odd thing.

Re: did you ever consider....
 

Actually, I HAVE considered that. I know this girl who is a friend of friends of mine...she's VERY superficial. She knew before she even came to college which sorority she wanted to be in. Mind you, she didn't know anyone in any of the sororities; she was just basing this decision on superficiality because she knew that this particular sorority is a top tier one at my school, and well, their girls are gorgeous. Mind you, they're wonderful girls, and super sweet. But she wasn't basing her choice on personality, but by image. :rolleyes: She did end up in that sorority.

What's really sad, is that she looks down on the girls that aren't in the top tier ones. :rolleyes:

I don't know about everyone else, but I joined my GLO because I liked the girls, and I meshed with them the best, and I felt at home with them, and I liked what they stood for. What a concept!

Interesting comment! Some but not all NPC groups require a chapter to contact the relative (i.e., phone call, etc.) if a legacy is cut. At least that's what some legacy policies on national web sites say. I'd guess that would be a super fun conversation.

Turning it around, of course, what if PNMs had to tell chapters why they cut THEM?

Some things may be better left unsaid :).

BTW, DGMarie, congrats to "Anchors Online" for really encouraging DGs to submit Sponsor Forms.

We have to, and I was Rec Chairman. It is one of the best ways of training for the Diplomatic Corps that I can begin to think of!!

I can think of one legacy who had so much leverage that, the ONLY reason we didn't cut her was because absolutely no one - including our Alumnae Group! - wanted to call her relatives!!

honeychile,

That must have been a mess to live through -- my belated sympathy.

ttt

Re: did you ever consider....
 

UGH! This girl sounds like me, circa 1985.

All I can say is that I eventually grew up and quit being an obnoxious brat and hopefully she will too.

Reading this thread backwards makes for an interesting, yet slightly confusing read. This insomnia is killing me.

/tangent

I don't think there's any nice way that a sorority could cut you. It's not like they have the capacity to say something like, "We just knew you would mesh so much better with ABC," since that would be stereotypical as well.

Maybe they should make a cut with interest option. Something for the girls who fell through the cracks since they didn't stand out, so they would know they really need to be unique. But I don't know if that would get PNMs hopes up too much about being invited back later, or what other damage it could case.

I know that my school is pretty small and recruitment isn't that harsh but I don't see much of the judging people by their looks. My sorority is known as the diverse sorority. We have all kinds of girls. We have the "pretty girls", the "big girls" and everything in between. This is why I wanted to be a DZ so much. Yes on my campus we have the "beautiful" sororities and the not so popular sororities but all in all I think that most of the sororities are equal.
The only problem that we have with the superficialness (don't know if that is a word), is people that come in and help with recruitment. I know that we have great consultants but some of them that we have had in the past have been horrible. It just makes me mad when a person who doesn't know us or our greek system walks in and tells us that we need to be more beautiful for recruitment. I can understand that we need to make a good impression but we also need to act like ourselves. They have actually said to us that we need to wear more makeup and such. It might be a shock to them but not everyone wears makeup. I think it makes us look fake when we are one way during the year and when recruitment comes around we are all trying to be supermodels...:rolleyes:
Also it is a problem with these women coming in and only wanting the "cute girls". They aren't going to be in our chapter and they don't know what kinds of girls would mesh well with us. I hate to say it but a lot of the "pretty girls" that they pick for us have been worthless sisters and we never see them. I personally think that someone's personality is more important when I am looking at potential sisters but unfortunately not everyone feels this way.
Sorry I went on so long.

Not long, it needed to be said. It's great to have help from consultants and/or alumnae but there's a difference between wanting the chapter to be its best and wanting the chapter to conform to an image it doesn't want - especially when the chapter is thriving as it is. I agree that it's great to have beautiful women and superinvolved women but if they're never around, it really doesn't matter how wonderful someone thought they were at rush.

Sometimes you just have to live and learn. I rushed my sophomore year, and did not receive any bids. Rush is pretty competitive at my school, and even though I told people I was a sophomore I was really classified as a junior due to the numerous credits I gained from being a music ed major. So I was cut pretty hard. I didn't know how to "play the game" as someone said earlier, and I didn't even know that someone could write a rec for you until I came across GC. If it were any other reason besides those (such as my personality or what not) then I certainly don't know of any, but then again I don't need to know at this point.

But hey, a new sorority is colonizing this fall, and I'm very excited about it. Getting cut from rush is hard, but I've evaluated the situation and decided to take advantage of this opportunity to become a founding member of a wonderful organization. :)

Re: Why you didn't make it into a sorority.
 

Recruitment is a weeklong interview process. A sorority has a set number of spots to fill. Before you come into recruitment parties, they have taken a look at the recruitment applications and letters of recommendation. Think of that as your "resume." It gives them a chance to see who they might want "on paper."

Also consider that when you apply for a job, you're not always going to be invited to an interview. And if you are invited to an interview, you need to look your best, carry yourself well, be articulate and prepared with anecdotes about yourself and your experiences, as well as know something about the company you are interviewing with and be prepared for some questions about the "work" you would be doing and the environment surrounding that work.

So let's say your recruitment applications and recs are stellar. You're probably going to meet some key players-- the chapter president, recruitment chair, etc. If you can't hold your own in a conversation, you're not dressed appropriately, etc., there are still 100s of other girls to "interview" who will.

However, there are times, too, when you may be as prepared as anything, but you have a poor recruiter who doesn't ask you the right questions or does not have the ability to carry a conversation.

Or there is zero chemistry between you and your recruiter. Lack of rapport means you probably won't be invited back.

Similarly, you can't expect to enter a sorority house and just stand there like a mute. You need to be engaging and conversational.

Overall, aside from your wardrobe choices, recs and application, you need to research the sororities, pull together some anecdotes about yourself and do some personal assessment of why you want to belong to a women's organization.

Be prepared. You may still be cut, but at least you will have done your homework.

And as always, contact the office of Greek Life at your school with recruitment questions. Call them as often as you wish. And for Pete's Sake, although we all love our sororities and being sorority women, there are plenty of other things to do on campus if you don't join a sorority-- and you will still be able to make friends and enjoy college.

No offense, and not to sound like a b#$%^ but if you had the hours of a Junior, and you were telling people you were a sophomore, that's probably a reason why you got cut. Every school I know of atleast, when you sign and turn in your recruitment application/form they verifiy your GPA and your credit hours. So they know what your grades are and what your class status is before you even walk in the door the first day. Misleading a chapter(s) about your class status isnt a wise thing to do. Eventually you will be found out and the consequences there of will follow.

I think she meant that she was a sophomore in terms of her progression in her new program (it sounds like she switched programs) - and thus would be around for 3 years. I didn't read it as her attempting to mislead the chapters though the chapters could have seen it that way.

I wasn't intentionally misleading the sororities, because it was my second year at school, and I wasn't planning to graduate any earlier then 4 years. I just so happened to pick an insane major that required 18+ credit hours a semester, thus the early classification. I'm sure they felt they were misled, and I even talked to my recruitment counselor about it, but at that point it was too late. But you're absoutely right, and that's what exactly happened.

With respect to that, be as honest and clear as possible when talking about grades, activities and class status.

"I'm a senior, credit-hours wise, but I wanted to emphasize that I transferred schools and changed my major, and picked up a double minor, so I have another 3 years of undergrad. And with three more years of college to go, and being in a new place, I'd love to be a part of a sorority to make friends and get involved with my new school."


Spin it into something positive. Find a way to work those things in a couple of times in the same conversation so it sticks in your recruiter's head. When you leave the house and someone asks about Randi Rushee, the recruiter will say, "Oh she's a senior credits-wise, but she just transferred and will be here three more years!"

I just want to remind PNMs that nobody here is the supreme all knowing rush goddess. There's a lot of useful information here, but again, it DEPENDS ON YOUR SCHOOL, and many other factors. Please do not take anyone's words on here as absolute fact. Consider it all, form your own opinions, and do what's best for you.

I don't think anyone's claiming to be "the supreme all-knowing rush goddess," they're just offering their opinions. The women offering advice generally have a lot of experience with recruitment and just want to help PNMs. There is no need to belittle their advice.

That being said, PNMs should check out how things are run at their school, not just read GC.

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. There's just a lot of GCers that can make many very authoritative posts, and there's a lot of PNMs out there that do take GC as the greek gospel.

ETA: where did I belittle anyone's advice? I said that much of the advice is good.